War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 4, Part II
Discussão75 Books Challenge for 2011
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2Deern
Just finished chapter XIII. I took a break of almost 2 weeks after reading the first 3 chapters and now I don't remember much of them. Alltogether this part has not really been my cup of tea so far. I am growing tired of Tolstoi's musings about military genius and the nature of war.
Chapter XII was certainly very important, but it didn't really touch me. There's not much left of the character Pierre, he has changed his views so often throughout the novel and as I wrote before he had become more of a 'device'. So he finally had his " big revelation", but how long will it hold?
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Edit May 9th: I am just rereading my comments and I am sorry I was in such a bad mood when I wrote this. I remember I was really annoyed by the writing style, the constant repetitions. It felt like I was reading the same sentence again and again. I'll try a different edition the next time for comparison.
Chapter XII was certainly very important, but it didn't really touch me. There's not much left of the character Pierre, he has changed his views so often throughout the novel and as I wrote before he had become more of a 'device'. So he finally had his " big revelation", but how long will it hold?
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Edit May 9th: I am just rereading my comments and I am sorry I was in such a bad mood when I wrote this. I remember I was really annoyed by the writing style, the constant repetitions. It felt like I was reading the same sentence again and again. I'll try a different edition the next time for comparison.
3Deern
Maybe I am stupid, but I don't really understand why the French are leaving Moscow and are retreating back to Smolensk. Have I missed some real explanation here? Other than just guessings about Napoleon's genius or non-genius or movings from west to east which logically have to be follows by movings from east back to west?
I wonder what would have happened if Napoleon had been welcomed the way he expected it? Would he have taken the place of the souvereign, stayed a little and then returned to the west, leaving Russia as a French province? Or would he have progressed farther into the Eastern partes of Russia?
I wonder what would have happened if Napoleon had been welcomed the way he expected it? Would he have taken the place of the souvereign, stayed a little and then returned to the west, leaving Russia as a French province? Or would he have progressed farther into the Eastern partes of Russia?
4JanetinLondon
I think the French are leaving because the army is out of control. Napoleon knows it's best to stay, or else to attack the Russian army and destroy it, but he can't restore any order among his troops or in the town, although he has tried, so they won't actually have any provisions left to get through the winter. Smolensk is just a marker - they can't cope with the thought of the hundreds and hundreds of miles they have to go. The French army is completely demoralized and desperate, and once that has happened nothing can save them.
The contrast with the Russians, whose tails are up despite their hardships, and who are, after all, defending their homeland, is really dramatic. Tolstoy loves to give his favorites some great quotes – I absolutely love Kutuzov’s reply to Napoleon’s peace overture:
“I should be cursed by posterity were I regarded as the first to take any steps towards a settlement of any sort. Such is the spirit of my nation.”
Meanwhile, Pierre…..I have a sort of different take - after all his seeking he seems to be finding some peace – the horrors he has seen make him realize that happiness might just be the absence of suffering.
What I am starting to think about Pierre is just how different his experience of everything has been, I think primarily because, unlike all the other noblemen in the book, he is not in the military. His encounters are more often with “ordinary Russians”, which gives him a different perspective on life, the war, religion, patriotism, even possessions. But I’m not sure Tolstoy writes this very well, or maybe it’s the translation, or just me, as the writing seems to often fall into stereotype or just silliness. And I'm not exactly sure what Tolstoy thinks he is doing with him as a character. Maybe it will all fall into place for me by the end.
The contrast with the Russians, whose tails are up despite their hardships, and who are, after all, defending their homeland, is really dramatic. Tolstoy loves to give his favorites some great quotes – I absolutely love Kutuzov’s reply to Napoleon’s peace overture:
“I should be cursed by posterity were I regarded as the first to take any steps towards a settlement of any sort. Such is the spirit of my nation.”
Meanwhile, Pierre…..I have a sort of different take - after all his seeking he seems to be finding some peace – the horrors he has seen make him realize that happiness might just be the absence of suffering.
What I am starting to think about Pierre is just how different his experience of everything has been, I think primarily because, unlike all the other noblemen in the book, he is not in the military. His encounters are more often with “ordinary Russians”, which gives him a different perspective on life, the war, religion, patriotism, even possessions. But I’m not sure Tolstoy writes this very well, or maybe it’s the translation, or just me, as the writing seems to often fall into stereotype or just silliness. And I'm not exactly sure what Tolstoy thinks he is doing with him as a character. Maybe it will all fall into place for me by the end.
5Deern
#4: I also loved that quote! Is it authentic? I think I even checked that in the notes, but I forgot again. Where's my memory?
About Pierre: I actually liked his thoughts (and I kept thinking of Primo Levi's If this is a man Holocaust book). But Tolstoy wrote Pierre's revelations always like "look - this is the most important one now"" and then it's usually short-lived. While reading I thought so often "yes, now he has finally arrived in a good place" and in the next chapter it was all over again. There's always more to come.
About Pierre: I actually liked his thoughts (and I kept thinking of Primo Levi's If this is a man Holocaust book). But Tolstoy wrote Pierre's revelations always like "look - this is the most important one now"" and then it's usually short-lived. While reading I thought so often "yes, now he has finally arrived in a good place" and in the next chapter it was all over again. There's always more to come.
6JanetinLondon
I don't know if the quote is authentic - I haven't looked into any of the actual history. But it doesn't matter, it's great. I also liked Alexander's response in the previous section, which I can't find for the moment.
