The site picture

Not being an American, I'm not happy with the site picture.

I can't think of a good alternative, though. Perhaps the concept of "Progressive and Liberal!" is too broad and too abstract to be summed up in a picture. The Political Conservatives group don't have a picture.

A painting by Diego Rivera? Maybe "Vaccination of a Child"? (See web address below.)

(I thought that painting--part of a mural requested by Edsel Ford--was rather innocuous and was surprised to learn that it was quite controversial at the time. Later--thank heavens not in Detroit--one of Rivera's paintings was WHITEWASHED!)

http://www.dia.org/education/rivera/info13.htm

Perhaps another problem with the current picture is that it depicts an event that is probably more legend than fact. There is no actual evidence showing that Betsy Ross was hired by George Washington to design the US flag.

If we're trying to internationalize the image used for the group, maybe a good image would be "Liberty guiding the people" by Eugène Delacroix? Or would that be too militant?

Ah, sorry for the delay - I have internationalized the pic; I was a bit naive with the original one. Thanks for the suggestions.

Hmm. I guess war and death and destruction are international. I would prefer something a bit more peaceful myself.

That's definitely an improvement - I like it!

Ah, I somewhat agree the "sex & violence" aspect of this painting might not be quite within the verve for this collective progressive community.

I am certainly open to any suggestions you fellow readers might have for a different group image(?) Recommend some, galore!

Re: Delacroix's Liberty Leading the People.

We shouldn't back down from accepting that progress sometimes requires violence, however unfortunate that might be.

And it's a great and powerful picture that's been admired by progressives for 170 years all over the world.

I believe the lady in the pic is nick-named Marianne. Sometimes Lady Liberty has to get down and dirty to protect the rights of the people.

Yes, agorelik, but must we be defined by violence? How about changing the paradigm? Isn't that what Progressives do?

The picture doesn't glorify violence. The real costs of revolution are right there in the picture (dead bodies, burning cities).

Agreed. Realizing the cost doesn't mean denying reality or human nature. We are progressives and liberals, not Utopians.

So, why is having an image that represents an event in French history better than having one that represents an event in U.S. history?

Good question, for those of us who missed the original site picture that was initially so offensive just what was it? Betsy Ross sewing the flag? How about Washington accepting the salute at Trenton? or crossing the Delaware or even better the signing of the Declaration?

Or even the late goddess of liberty from Tiannamen Square.

I much prefer the current picture.

"So, why is having an image that represents an event in French history better than having one that represents an event in U.S. history?"

Yes, a good question. Personally, I feel the flag in this picture, despite the fact it was adopted as the French national flag, is supposed to represent universal values (liberty, equality, democracy), while the American flag just represents America.

" . . . for those of us who missed the original site picture that was initially so offensive just what was it?"

Some guy holding up an American flag. I didn't recognise the picture, so perhaps there was some meaning there that escaped me.

"Or even the late goddess of liberty from Tiannamen Square."

IIRC the goddess in Tiananmen square was the goddess of democracy, not liberty.

lilith, I suspect it has more to do with how the US is viewed right now, than anything to do with what was actually depicted in the picture.

Someone suggested that the original picture isn't acceptable because Betsy Ross might not have actually been commissioned by Washington. So, did a bare chested goddess of liberty really lead the French Revolution? ;o) No offense intended, Lunar. Just chuckling to myself over this whole thing.

Personally, I don't care what picture is used. (And I'm not too sure why some of you do.)

ha! I would prefer to put up a group-defining (or "illustrating") picture that is somewhat US-based, but am not at all happy with the 'current' administration's view on policy (whether foreign or domestic).

I do subscribe to the notion that an image can be worth a thousand words; but some literature manages to reverse this notion, hence the many books thicker than any paintings that I own.

Anyway, an image is just an image. I'd like to find a more contemporary Americana picture that is objectively hopeful but at the same time saddened by the current state of affairs.

That almost sounds like a homework assignment!

clamairy #17
Personally, I don't care what picture is used. (And I'm not too sure why some of you do.)

The reason I care is because the original picture gave the impression that the group is only for Americans or people interested in American politics. It has nothing to do with my dislike of the Bush administration. I assumed when I joined the group that it was for liberals and progressives of any nationality. Isn't that the case?

#19 - "I assumed when I joined the group that it was for liberals and progressives of any nationality. Isn't that the case?"

Akiyama, I'm sure it is, but since it was started by an American, he probably grabbed the first picture that looked good. I don't think the picture was meant to imply the exclusion of anyone. But I am curious as to why the French picture was acceptable, but the American one was not. I'm not trying to be combative, here. I am simply curious.

clamairy,

To me, "Liberty Leading the People" represents the ideal of liberty, rather than any specifically French ideal. I believe the tricolor was originally meant to represent the ideals of the revolution (liberty, equality and brotherhood), rather than the French nation.

But the stars and stripes on the original US flag (the one shown in the picture) represent the 13 ex-colonies. Even if the US flag is held to represent the principles behind the US, rather than the nation, I don't think the Americans of the time were fighting for liberty and justice for all, only liberty and justice for white people (not negroes or indians).

I wouldn't object to a picture of the Statue of Liberty, because to me that does represent liberty, not just America.

The other reason I prefer the French picture is because it's more dynamic. I'd rather liberals pictured themselves storming the Bastille than designing a flag!

Perhaps something from classical Greece or the Roman Republic where it all started?

Akiyama, thanks for the explanation. I agree with varielle, by the way.

I think that conservatives have just as much claim as liberals to the ideals of ancient Athens or Republican Rome. The idealists of these times were opposed to despotism and arbitrary rule, not inequality in general. I don't see many conservatives wanting to abolish democracy and the rule of law!

To my mind the period of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution really marks the start of the split between the present-day Left and Right.

I think we should go with Abraham Lincoln, potentially annoying a really large number of people (though not necessarily members of this group) ...

#17: Certainly no offense taken, but I just think that something that's pseudo-historical, like Betsy Ross, is in a different category than an image that is clearly allegorical. Honestly, I wish that more suggestions had gotten posted before an image was selected. Then again, it feels weird to be very picky about a group image. Whatever works.

No offence to the US members of this group, but I think part of the issue may have also been that many non-US members of the internet community get a little bit fed-up with the assumption that everyone who uses the internet is American, or understands American history, or that everything has to be US-Centric. I am not saying that was the intention of the original artwork, but it can be annoying to some when the perspective outside of North America is ignored!

Dang!

>No offence to the US members of this group, but I think part of the issue may have also been that many non-US members of the internet community get a little bit fed-up with the assumption that everyone who uses the internet is American, or understands American history, or that everything has to be US-Centric. I am not saying that was the intention of the original artwork, but it can be annoying to some when the perspective outside of North America is ignored!

It's a good thing that you're posting from Australia and not some place in North America. Otherwise, I'd have to give this viewpoint some credence.

It's no surprise the right thinks of liberals as immoral, voyeuristic, creeps. We represent ourselves with a rather large breasted, immodest woman, showing herself to all and sundry. Can't someone photoshop a drape to cover her up?

Bwaaa haa haa, geneg! Who are you? John Ashcroft?
:o)

By the way, going back to the North American perspective, isn't North America comprised of Mexico, USA and Canada? Last I heard, that was the case. A better definition of terms might aid clarification. Though I must agree with the general sentiment that we tend to be quite ethnocentric here in the USA. And geneg is right, we should cover that darn woman in the picture decently, like the very proper Statue of Liberty. My sensibilities have been grievously offended. One of the reasons we might be deceived into ethnocentric views of the world around us is the prevalence of iconic elements of our "culture" everywhere (to the extent that corporations are part of our culture, that is). Whenever I travel to other countries, I find hot dogs, Starbucks, McDonald's, Coca-Cola, US fashions, etc. everywhere. Not to mention US rock and hip hop and films. But when we incorporate elements of others' cultures--cappuccino, sushi, pizza, tacos--somehow we manage to make them an "American thing." These are superficial or shallow constants but it gives the US traveler, perhaps, a sense of a certain "normalization" of US culture abroad, as in, "we are the world!". I can see how that annoys citizens of other nations. I don't blame 'em either. But one of my nerdy little pet peeves are things like the assumption that "America" equals the USA--America is a whole continent--as well as that North America is only the USA... it is actually three very large countries encompassing the Spanish, English and French languages ... okay, okay, that was the neurotic psycho-teacher in me making sure every "i" has been dotted, every thing properly named ...

How about a photo of this guy he stands for the international nature of liberal/progressivism.

When I said Lennon, that's not who I was talking about, Gene.

ohhhh geneg you are a bad, bad boy. McCarthy would have known what do to with you. ;o)

How about a photo of this guy , the father of Modern Liberalism?