The Iliad isn't history

I definitely disagree with Muscogulus' point that "The Iliad isn't history."

One might just as well say the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Parthenon are not artifacts of history. You just happen not to agree with the validity of the viewpoint of cultural historians.

Can you say that Jacob Burckhardt was not an historian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Burckhardt

Cultural historians are perfectly legitimate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_history

You and I might disagree with the definition of historian, as one might with different flavors of ice cream, but Jacob Burckhardt was an historian and the Iliad is an historical and cultural artifact of tremendous value.

So yes: The Iliad is history and an epic poem, of course.

Likewise, viewing history through the lens of not just cultural historians but also people like Fernand Baudel's with his "longue durée" help us see history and happenings not as microscopic one time only events but in terms of trends and themes of which this epic poem is a part.

We both like ice cream however we truly differ as to which flavor is preferable.

I see a big difference between 'historical artifact' and literal history.

Once more we seek a definition for "History" a term that can be used for many processes and objects.
Baring time machines, and if Cecrow actually has one of those very useful devices, I'd love a ride, (there's some people I'd love to see in action!) in order to experience "Literal History".
I have to define "history" as the process of doing historical research, the pursuit of a usable picture of the past from which useful lessons and examples can be drawn as a guide to the perplexed. The Iliad has a great career of providing some of the pithiest examples we all use.
"History" as I define it is the transfer of the future into the past by experience in time and doing one's best to record the processes one sees.

>3 DinadansFriend: I have to define "history" as the process of doing historical research, the pursuit of a usable picture of the past from which useful lessons and examples can be drawn as a guide to the perplexed.

My understanding of history, as in the study of the past, is that it pursues an accurate picture of the past, "usable" or not, and that the goal of finding "useful lessons" in it tends to warp that picture.

>1 Urquhart: Maybe he means 'the Iliad isn't history' in a more literal sense. I.e. the events in the Iliad did not happen, and the characters were not real people. It is a work of fiction, in other words.

If the Iliad is 'history' because of its cultural impact, then Uncle Tom's Cabin and Gone with the Wind are also 'history', as they have had a huge influence on our perception of slavery and the antebellum period, and the former novel may have contributed to the Civil War. But no historian would call Gone with the Wind historically accurate, or Uncle Tom's Cabin a true depiction of the lives of slaves. After reading the novels, one can't say, "Oh, so that's what life was like back then." Cause it really wasn't. Anymore than the Iliad represents the real war experiences of ancient Greek soldiers. When Xenophon went off to fight for Cyrus, centuries later, he probably thought, "Hey, this is nothing like the Iliad!"

>5 madpoet:, thanks, this is the point I was making. The Iliad is a part of history and has figured large, but cannot be read literally as a historical document of events. It does offer many clues that have helped inform research.

It gives us a sense of what Ancient Greeks thought, what they wanted to believe, what they found entertaining.

>7 BruceCoulson:. Exactly right. Myths and legends are a clue to a culture's values and aspirations. Not the way their world was, but how they wanted it to be.

I wonder if future centuries will judge us by our superhero fascination. What does that say about us?

Well, "Troy" was rather like a comic book rendition of the "Iliad"! And "300", and the other one like that the name of which eludes me. Come to think of it "troy" was rather dignified compared to the other two...and Shaun Bean was a dynamite Odysseus!
I hope the super hero fixation of the present set of movie-goers dies off. I've been bored with all of them except Tony Stark, since Toby McGuire lost the Spiderman franchise.
I always think that superheroes, who are not risking as much as ordinary people are not heroes at all. So I think the super hero fixation is a search for an effortless compensation for enduring the evils and ills we do not actually work against.

Far as superheroes go, I thought it was indulging in the fantasy of one individual being able to make a difference, when generally we feel like we're just helpless atoms in the universe taking place around us.

>10 Cecrow: that's what I was thinking too.

There have been some commentaries in the tv-series and the movies (Batman vs Superman touched upon it recently) on the destruction of property and lives by the actions of the superheroes, whether it's all in proportion, and if they're doing their best to minimize damage to civilians.

I haven't seen the latest MCU and X-Men outings, have to find a time to catch them still in cinema.

>9 DinadansFriend: I hope the super hero fixation of the present set of movie-goers dies off. I've been bored with all of them except Tony Stark

Me too. But then Tony Stark is an interesting case because his only "superpower" is being very rich and very smart. But mostly the trend in the superheros concept seems to me to have shifted from the idea of them as a separate race (a la the X-men franchise) to what it means to have power and how do you exercise it responsibly, with accountability. The Daredevil series seems to be all about that question.

Daredevil was my favorite comic book growing up, and I have enjoyed the series on Netflix.

I also liked Arrow and Jessica Jones was a treat. I am looking forward to her return.

I've finished the MCU films and series, now I'm on s1 of Arrow.

I've never read any comics - the European comic strips don't seem to count.

Okay, Toby Maguire's "Spiderman", Tony Stark, and "Jessica Jones" are the "superheroes" of my interest. Jess so needs everyone's help.
As I'm fond of puns, "Asterix" is a European comic I have enjoyed.