Tutored read: Emma by Jane Austen

Emma by Jane Austen (1815)

"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like."
---Jane Austen, thumbing her nose at literary convention as usual

Hello, all! Welcome to the tutored read of Jane Austen's Emma.

For the benefit of any newcomers, a tutored read differs from a group read in that it is led by a "tutee", who sets the reading pace and assists the tutor by asking questions that both clarify the text and open up points for discussion. Our tutee for Emma is Ilana (Smiler69), who has played the same important role in our previous tutored reads of Mansfield Park, Persuasion, Pride And Prejudice and Sense And Sensibility and helped to make them so enjoyable!

But while there is a main tutee, experience shows that these group reads work best with lots of questions! - also that if one person has a question about something, someone else is sure to be wondering the same thing. Whether it relates to the language of the novel, 19th century life and conventions, or a plot detail you've forgotten or don't understand, please do post a question - it will make this read a richer experience for all participants.

Everyone who participates is welcome to ask questions and make comments, however we do request that no-one makes reference to anything in the novel beyond the point where the tutee indicates that they are up to. To facilitate this, we ask that anyone adding a post use bolding to highlight what chapter is under discussion.

We also ask that those participants who have read the novel before are mindful that others may not have done, and are careful about spoilers. Use spoiler tags if you wish, but preferably hold your comments until the relevant part of the novel is reached, or when the read is finished.

The only other thing I would say at the outset is that if you have not read Emma before, do not read the Introduction of your edition or any other analysis before you read the novel---I've never seen any Introduction to Emma that didn't completely ruin it.

Before we begin, a little history...

Back in 2011, Madeline (SqueakyChu) of the 75ers group began reading Emma because "I told our niece I wanted to read what she was reading at Princeton University for her freshman English course this semester. Her major is English. Then it turned out her course was 19th Century Fiction - far from my favorite literature! In other words, Yuck!"

Madeline's opinion didn't change as her reading progressed---and she began to vent her frustration on her thread. Some of her difficulties were in regard to Austen's use of language, but many of them stemmed from bewilderment over the characters' actions---in essence, "Why are these people behaving like this!?"

Naturally, I couldn't let such a situation continue without rudely butting in trying to help. I began dropping in on her thread to address some of the points raised, and the conversation went back and forth throughout the rest of Madeline's read; and while she didn't immediately turn into a Jane Austen fan, she was sufficiently won over to embark upon a read of Northanger Abbey. This time, the two of us set up a dedicated thread---and the tutored read was born.

So Madeline is a patron saint of sorts to this variety of group read, and we should all offer her a big vote of thanks!

Over the intervening years a number of people, remembering the initial discussions, have tried to find "the tutored read thread" for Emma, so this is the explanation of why there isn't one. :)

...and now, Emma:

This was Jane Austen's fourth novel, begun in January of 1814 and published in December of 1815 (although by common British practice, it is copyrighted the following year). Sadly, it was the last to be published in her lifetime: Austen fell ill in the early months of 1816.

As with Austen's other novels, Emma is ostensibly a story of love and marriage, but in reality a snapshot of real life during Regency England: one shot through with social commentary, humour and irony.

I don't want to say too much - in fact, anything! - about Emma at this point. As indicated up above, this is a novel that is easy to spoil; and where, conversely, much of the fun and enjoyment lies in Austen's clever unfolding of her plot.

As an aid for our participants, I will create here and progressively add to:

A character list for Emma:

Emma Woodhouse
Mr Woodhouse, her elderly father
Hartfield, their property

Mrs Weston, formerly Miss Taylor, Emma's governess
Mr Weston, her husband
Randalls, their house, situated half a mile from Hartfield

Mr Knightley
Donwell Abbey, his estate

Highbury, the village to which Hartfield and Randalls are adjacent

Mrs Bates, the widow of the former Vicar of Highbury
Miss Bates, her daughter
Jane Fairfax, her granddaughter

Mrs Goddard, the proprietor of a school for girls
Harriet Smith, a parlour-boarder at the school

I think that's enough out of me for now---please say "Hi!" if you will be participating or lurking!

I'm here and will be reading along. I like the idea of Madeline being the patron saint of our Jane Austen/tutored reads :-)

I'm tempted to join you but may start as a lurker. I have a lovely copy of Emma that I've never read, although I've seen at least two dramatizations of the novel. Several people have asked me to consider leading a tutored read of an English Renaissance play, so I'm curious to see how this develops.

Hello - I'll be in the gallery seats, too. I read Emma for the first time last year.

I shall be reading along.

I'll be lurking! Emma was the first Austen I read and I didn't like it (or her)

Ooh, I'm keen to join in. I've never managed to read any Austen and frankly find her quite scary. But this year I set myself some challenges and one was to read a book that intimidates me, so here goes. Thanks for running this. I don't think I could manage it on my own.

I'll be following along with the discussion, but not rereading the book. I love Austen in general, but hate Emma. (And although I know why I dislike it, I can't really explain at the moment without major spoilers.)

I'll be following along as well. Emma has grown on me; I had a hard time making it through the first reading, but it got better as it went along, so hopefully encouragement for those who might struggle at the beginning. I also loved all the movies I've seen of Emma, which I think helped me, too.

This year is a nineteenth century reading year for me, so Emma fits in well. I have read it before, but am looking forward to rereading it. I will be starting a bit later than others, as I will be away for a good part of September, without internet.

I have the same edition pictured in >1 lyzard: above.

I'll be following along! Emma is my favorite Austen.

Welcome, everybody, and thank you for joining in! It's interesting that we have so many diverse opinions already---we'll see if we change any of them along the way! :)

I'll be around. I don't think I've ever read Emma but I've seen both the movie version with that dreamy Jeremy Northam, and also the movie Clueless, so I feel like I'm set. :-)

{*bangs gently taps forehead on keyboard*}

Unfortunately Ilana has been hit with migraines and may not join us immediately, so as a starting point I'll just say that Austen conveys a LOT of information of different sorts to the reader in Chapter 1, and it really does repay close reading. We might see what we can dissect out of it.

First of all, of course, there's the infamous opening description of Emma herself:

Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her.

This blatantly contradicts all the usual conventions of heroines who were supposed to be bravely struggling against adversity, and as per Austen's own tongue-in-cheek summation of Emma as someone "whom no one but myself will much like" functions as a direct challenge to the reader.

This paragraph also lays out Austen's technique in the novel, wherein the overt and the covert are constantly present, and which requires the reader to stay alert to various instances of misdirection. Here, for instance, while the overt description of Emma is of the girl who has everything, the rider to this description - "with very little to distress or vex her" - also means that nothing has ever happened to her. This is a point that becomes increasingly important as we follow Emma's behaviour over the length of the novel.

Gosh, Liz, did I inspire your head-desk moment? :-)

You mean you didn't mean to?? :D

By the way, this thread's now added to our group wiki page.

Thanks, Jim! I should have done that myself---alas, the way this year has gone, I'm out of practice! :)

>21 lyzard: Maaaaaaybeeee ... ;-)

I just may follow along. I read Austin for the first time last year (Pride and Prejudice), so maybe I should read a second. It'll blow a gash through my reading schedule, but that just may be a great thing.

Welcome, Bill - nice to have you along!

In Chapter 1, Austen gradually reveals Emma's personal situation.

What we might notice first is how very few people there are in her daily life, particularly as she has (since the age of thirteen) been essentially an only child, and has now lost her governess.

The next thing is that we are again in the presence of one of Austen's ineffectual fathers.

It was a very important fact for young women at the time that their lives and situations would be shaped and dictated by their male relatives, and that they might be lucky or unlucky in this respect---but would have little opportunity to control their own destinies. The huge influence of fathers is shown in Austen's writing by its reverse---her characters are often in difficult circumstances because either the father is dead, or he is somehow failing in his responsibilities.

The range of bad fathers in Austen - that is, the different ways a father could fail his daughters - is very instructive: irresponsible Mr Bennet, proud and superficial Sir Thomas Bertram, selfish Sir Walter Eliot all have a severely negative impact upon their daughters. Even Mr Dashwood fails his family via a carelessly written will.

Mr Woodhouse is not as actively damaging to his daughter, but in the unfolding of their relationship we see he is no help to Emma---that she cares for him rather than the other way around. He is a valetudinarian by choice rather than because of his age or his health, though he is a prize hypochondriac; and he is, albeit in a far less aggressive and deliberate way, every bit as selfish as Sir Walter Eliot.

On the evening that Emma loses her governess-friend and is feeling lonely and a bit sad:

...her father composed himself to sleep after dinner, as usual, and she had then only to sit and think of what she had lost... She dearly loved her father, but he was no companion for her. He could not meet her in conversation, rational or playful...

>3 lyzard: "I told our niece I wanted to read what she was reading at Princeton University..."

This is so cool. My niece was visiting our home today which was a real treat. I don't see her often so it's quite fun that you mentioned her. She graduated from Princeton one year ago...not as an English major. I don't know what her degree is in specifically, but surely something related to political science. She wants to either be an attorney or a journalist. She works doing political policy assessment for private companies. She is also currently studying for her LSAT and plans to enter law school at some time in the future. I offered her some books from my Little Free Library to take home tonight, but she says she has no time to read.

Haha! I remember very well my cynicism at reading Jane Austen novels. Although I never really got into them that much, I loved the tangent we went off on from our read of Northanger Abbey. That was the beginning of my reading gothic novels as a tutee in your tutored reads. Now I'm a babysitter for my three-year-old grandson and read mostly preschool books. That is great fun as well since I haven't revisited them since my own children were little. I also became interested in reading manga following my older son's two trips to Japan this year.

On a Jane Austen note, one of my Bookcrossing buddies (petrini1) with a Little Free Library of her own has a Jane Austen action figure that visits different Little Free Libraries across America. I think her blog postsare fun.

Enjoy your read of Emma, everyone!

>6 souloftherose: I like the idea of Madeline being the patron saint of our Jane Austen/tutored reads

Haha!

Thanks for dropping in, St Madeline!

Oh my! Lots to catch up on already! I'm glad to see we've got an interesting party of people already. It's very late now, and I'm bent all out of shape with monster migraines, so not sure how this will go. Probably in fits and starts. I'll come back to catch up and post when I'm ready, as usual!

I'll be following along, although I may not reread as I have reread it fairly recently.

>30 Smiler69:

That's okay---there's a lot more to point out about Chapter 1, so I'll just keep mumbling away... :)

>31 ronincats:

Thanks for joining us, Roni!

Emma has never been one of my favorite Austens so I will be rereading and following along to see what I've missed.

Progress report: I'm now caught up with this thread... for the moment! Will start reading the novel today. This will be my second reading of Emma. I remember following that discussion on St Madeline's thread all that long while ago. I am among those who kept looking for the dedicated Emma thread, as I kept forgetting it didn't actually exist yet, which is why I thought an 'official' tutored read might be a good idea. I've said this before, but I owe my love of Jane Austen novels entirely to Liz, as I used to be among the haters, finding Austen's 'romance novels' insipid... but that was apparently only because I didn't understand just how clever they were. Now I consider myself a full-fledged Austenite and have several editions of all her novels and short stories.

>11 eclecticdodo: I felt more or less the same way as you when I first started reading Jane Austen, which happened in 2011 during the Austenathon we had here on LT. We were reading them in publication order and I didn't at all 'get' Sense and Sensibility and was mostly annoyed by Marianne, one of the main characters. As for Pride and Prejudice, I couldn't stand it and got so frustrated at it I threw the book against a wall. It bounced right back at me and I picked it up and continued reading it, but was only able to fully appreciate it when I reread it for a tutored read with Liz. Hopefully you won't have to go through so much hate as I did before you can start enjoying these novels!

Feeling better right now with just a slight headache... amen to that. Thanks so much Liz for doing this again, and thanks to everyone who has shown interest in this thread so far!

Okay, so I have some questions or one specific question. When does the read actually begin?

Also does anyone have the links to the other Austen tutored reads? I would love to visit them as I read the other Austens. I don't know how I missed them unless they were located elsewhere.

Thank you so much for setting this up Lyz. I have read Emma previously but (& does anyone else do this?) up until now, other than for P & P, my Austen reads have been more like skims because I just 'did not get her' plus we HAD to read her in school and we all know how that leaves one.

>34 Smiler69: I'm just out to walk my dog and saw your questions. I'm sure either Liz or I (or probably both) will be happy to give you full answers. I'll be back later this afternoon or evening (Montreal / Eastern time).

>34 Smiler69: I don't know if I was ever an actual Austen-hater, but I thought she was a boring writer. Nothing happened! It took me four years to read Emma but I did force myself just so I could say I read it. Like you, I didn't get that she was supposed to be funny. Once I learned how Austen's humour worked, things abruptly turned around for me.

>35 rainpebble: my Austen reads have been more like skims because I just 'did not get her' -- which of course is the worst way to read Austen. The way she constructs her sentences, all meaning and humour will be lost to the skimmer. And then the skimmer doesn't "get" it, and then skims even more, . . . it's all a vicious cycle that leads to Austen unhappiness. Been there, done that.

I will read along. I haven't read Emma before, and only recently got around to P&P,much to my daughter's disgust. But I enjoyed it greatly, as she promised me I would.

>34 Smiler69: I've only read chapter 1 and already I'm enjoying it more than last time, though that's not hard. When I say "read", I actually mean listened to - the Juliet Stevenson narration on audible. I must have given away my old paperback in disgust.

>27 lyzard: Mr Woodhouse really is a wet blanket. Thank you for pointing out the theme in Austen's work

Following along this thread on my favourite Austen and possibly my favourite novel. Thanks so much for setting up this tutored read.

I'll be following along, too. I've enjoyed and learned a lot from the Liz/Ilana team-ups in the past. Emma is not my favorite JA novel, but I suspect I'll understand and like it more after this.

         

Above are the four five edition of Emma I currently own. I first discovered this novel with the audiobook version brilliantly narrated by my much beloved Juliet Stevenson (I followed Madeline's and Liz's discussion with this version). For this tutorial, I'll be reading from the Everyman's Library edition (and will read the introduction as I needn't fear spoilers).

I purchased all the available Belknap (Harvard Press) JA annotated editions during our last tutorial (Mansfield Park), and am now only missing aforementioned MP, which is being released at the end of October. I won't be reading from this annotated edition initially, but once I've gone over my questions and talking points with Liz, will refer to it for a point of view by another expert, and also hopefully to bring up more talking points to this thread.

The fourth cover shown is my beloved Penguin Threads edition, embroidered by Jillian Tamaki, I own all six books in the collection (half of which are by artist Rachell Sumpter), though have yet to actually read from them; I may never do so, since I own all the books in other editions as well, but they're a pleasure just to look at (http://www.penguin.com/static/pages/classics/penguinthreads). Finally, I have several White's books, including this one, with cover famously illustrated by designer Petra Börner.

For the purposes of discussion on this thread, I'll be copy/pasting the text from the Project Gutenberg (free) online edition, which I believe is an Americanized version. But I'm stubborn and like to anglicise the honorifics (Mr, Mrs, Dr) by removing the period as a small nod to the original version.

Now off to actually read a chapter or three.

eta: oh dear oh dear. I just noticed my Everyman's edition is the American one, hence, americanized. *grumble grumble*. Why do they do this to classic texts?!?

>35 rainpebble: Links to the other Austen tutored read threads are (in a totally random order):

Tutored read of Northanger Abbey
Tutored read of Pride and Prejudice
Tutored read of Sense and Sensibility
Tutored read of Persuasion
Tutored read of Mansfield Park

>42 Smiler69: Ewwww....Americanized? I hope mine isn't, but now I have grave doubts. It's one of the Word Cloud Classics series. I must see if they are pure or tainted.

Edit: Ah...their website says "These editions feature the full unabridged texts as originally published." *whew* 'Cause, I mean, it's so pretty:

I'm here to follow along. So exciting. I love Juliet Stevenson's Austen narrations.

I'm very glad you were feeling well enough to join us, Ilana! Welcome too to all our newcomers, it's great to see such a good group developing.

For the benefit of any tutored read newbies here, I should point out that we do occasionally suffer from time-zone-difference lapses on these threads---but if I don't respond to something right away, I'm not ignoring you, it's just because it's three o'clock in the morning here. :)

>34 Smiler69:

Thanks, Ilana, I really appreciate that! :)

>35 rainpebble:

Belva, you may read at your own pace; there's no set chapters per day or anything like that. However, we try to keep the comments and questions at the point of the nominated chapter (at the moment, still Chapter 1) to allow for as much discussion as needed and to avoid spoilers.

We are a tiny bit disjointed this time because Ilana wasn't able to join us right away, but we should soon settle down to a regular routine.

Thanks, Heather, for posting the links to the other Austen tutored reads!

As others have said, skimming Austen is fatal! - more than most authors, she requires close reading, which of course makes her more demanding for the reader. It is not at all surprising that many people have an unpleasant first experience with Austen and get a bad impression.

The best part of these tutored reads for me is when I get a, "Ohhhh, now I get it!" reaction. :)

I have this thread starred and I'll be lurking here. I won't be re-reading it this time around since I've read Emma multiple times. It was my favorite Austen novel when I was younger, but now Persuasion is my favorite.

Hi, Carrie!

Another important aspect of Chapter 1 is the delineation of the relationship between Emma and the former Miss Taylor, now Mrs Weston, her governess.

Governesses occupied an anomalous position in 19th century households, situated between the family and the servants but belonging to neither. They were often very badly treated, with little real authority, and expected to do the work of an extra servant in addition to their teaching duties.

Clearly Miss Taylor was more fortunate, valued and well-treated by the Woodhouses. Though she continues to be referred to as Emma's governess, she would have stopped any teaching when Emma was seventeen or so, and afterwards acted more as a companion than a governess.

Emma is only four when she loses her mother, and Miss Taylor becomes like a mother to her---up to a point.

It soon emerges that although Emma and Miss Taylor were extremely fond of one another, the latter has had no real authority over her pupil; worse, that she has even encouraged her faults:

Even before Miss Taylor had ceased to hold the nominal office of governess, the mildness of her temper had hardly allowed her to impose any restraint; and the shadow of authority being now long passed away, they had been living together as friend and friend very mutually attached, and Emma doing just what she liked; highly esteeming Miss Taylor's judgement, but directed chiefly by her own.

She had been a friend and companion such as few possessed: intelligent, well-informed, useful, gentle, knowing all the ways of the family, interested in all its concerns, and peculiarly interested in herself, in every pleasure, every scheme of hers---one to whom she could speak every thought as it arose, and who had such an affection for her as could never find fault.

So Emma has had her own way most of her life---certainly since she was about thirteen, when her sister married and left home; not only had her own way, but spent the past seven or eight years living with two people who can't see a fault in her...

Just dropping by to say I've read the first couple of chapters and will be posting questions tomorrow as it's close to bedtime for me now. Looking forward to reading the above and whatever other comments are posted in the meantime!

>49 lyzard: That's helpful, thanks. Her heedless alpha behavior is often striking, and this helps explain its roots.

Chapter one is done and dusted for me and I will wait for Ilana to ask a few questions before chipping in. Love the idea of St. Madeleine.

>52 PaulCranswick: Ditto.

Well, thinking my Everyman's edition was americanized because of the punctuation on 'Mr.' Woodhouse in the first chapter, I decided to pick up my beautiful Belknap annotated edition, which is faithful to the first edition, published in three volumes in 1815. However, I found the annotations on each page extremely distracting and couldn't help myself from reading them, breaking the flow of the narrative. Now went back to the Everyman's and found they used British spelling after all (I'm fairly sure of this: 'humours', not 'humors'). Easier to flow along with the text this way.

So here goes:

Volume I, Chapter I

1. The real evils, indeed, of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself; these were the disadvantages which threatened alloy to her many enjoyments. The danger, however, was at present so unperceived, that they did not by any means rank as misfortunes with her.
What does 'alloy' mean in this context?
Back to what you were saying about Miss Taylor having been more of a friend than a true guide, I couldn't help but think that she effectively had the role of mothering Emma, and that like the mothers in P&P and S&S, she also proved to have very bad mothering skills, such as they were.

2. The wedding over, and the bride-people gone,
Was 'bride-people' a common expression? Is it still a current one? What does it mean exactly both as definition and socially?

3. she had always wished and promoted the match; but it was a black morning's work for her.
Explain.

4. She had been a friend and companion such as few possessed: intelligent, well-informed, useful, gentle, knowing all the ways of the family, interested in all its concerns, and peculiarly interested in herself, in every pleasure, every scheme of hers—one to whom she could speak every thought as it arose, and who had such an affection for her as could never find fault.
Here we go: I understand she had a tenuous position to exert any authority, but as a surrogate mother figure she was basically useless!

5. Please explain the difference between a valetudinarian and hypochondriac. Or are they synonyms?

6. Her sister, though comparatively but little removed by matrimony, being settled in London, only sixteen miles off,
Here I couldn't help but read the annotation in the Belknap, which explains that the fictional Highbury which Jane Austen sets the story could never be located on a map, since the author positioned it at impossible distances when triangulating with known places.

7. Highbury, the large and populous village, almost amounting to a town, to which Hartfield, in spite of its separate lawn, and shrubberies, and name, did really belong,
Why the reference to 'separate lawn and shrubberies'?

8. I would have easily skipped over the expression of Emma having 'odd humours', but having followed enough of your tutorials now, I know a lot of importance was attributed to humours at the time. What does it mean in this context?

9. We shall be always meeting
Odd phrase construction. JA seems to do this a lot, which has me constantly doing double and triple-takes when I think I've read a common enough turn of phrase that yet seems entirely unfamiliar... Can you explain this aspect of her writing style to us? Or is it simply an 18th century mannerism?

10. I could not walk half so far
I know JA is poking fun at Mr Woodhouse here, but if he can't walk even a quarter mile, shouldn't he be in a wheelchair??

11. for I would not have had poor James think himself slighted upon any account
Why would he have felt slighted? What is he talking about?

12. we have had a vast deal of rain here. It rained dreadfully hard for half an hour while we were at breakfast. I wanted them to put off the wedding.
He really is old maidenish, isn't he?

13. but when it comes to the question of dependence or independence!—At any rate,
Seems to me like there could have been a whole dissertation between the initial statement and what comes next... what WAS he leading to, do you think?

14. What is a 'mizzle'? Is it more, or less than a drizzle? Is it even a real expression? Just did a spell-check and seems it is, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. ;-)

***

Chapter 2 follows in a separate post.

Thanks to all who helped to answer my questions regarding this & other tutored reads. I will be beginning Emma this evening.

Volume I, Chapter 2

15. had become indisposed for any of the more homely pursuits in which his brothers were engaged, and had satisfied an active, cheerful mind and social temper by entering into the militia of his county, then embodied.
Perhaps it's the sentence construction, but I don't understand what is meant here.

16. though her fortune bore no proportion to the family-estate
What is meant by this?

17. for as to Frank, it was more than being tacitly brought up as his uncle's heir, it had become so avowed an adoption as to have him assume the name of Churchill on coming of age.
We've talked about adoption in Mansfield Park, as well as in JA's personal experience with her brother Edward, but I'm still not clear on what the legal vs social processes were at that time.

18. but it was not in Mr. Weston's nature to imagine that any caprice could be strong enough to affect one so dear,
Is she saying he is basically blind to the faults of anyone dear to him?

19. "I suppose you have heard of the handsome letter Mr. Frank Churchill has written to Mrs. Weston? I understand it was a very handsome letter, indeed."
Why does JA make fun of the 'handsome letter' from Frank Churchill?

21. And then there was such comfort in the very easy distance of Randalls from Hartfield, so convenient for even solitary female walking, and in Mr. Weston's disposition and circumstances, which would make the approaching season no hindrance to their spending half the evenings in the week together.
Please explain.

22. The compliments of his neighbours were over; he was no longer teased by being wished joy of so sorrowful an event; and the wedding-cake, which had been a great distress to him, was all eat up. His own stomach could bear nothing rich, and he could never believe other people to be different from himself. What was unwholesome to him he regarded as unfit for any body; and he had, therefore, earnestly tried to dissuade them from having any wedding-cake at all, and when that proved vain, as earnestly tried to prevent any body's eating it.
A very funny passage about just how fussy Mr Woodhouse can be!

***

A couple more chapters to come soon. In the meantime, have at the first two chapters, everyone!

Wow! Great start, Ilana! :)

Volume I, Chapter 1

1. An alloy in a chemical sense means two substances mixed together (bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, for example); but a stricter definition of the word means the mixing of positive and negative, or a good quality product with a poor quality product.

So Austen is saying that although Emma has all sorts of advantages, in terms of her situation and her own character, to make her happy, the co-existence of "these real evils", these faults which are an alloy to all the positives - the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself - are likely to cause trouble and unhappiness.

2. "Bride-people" are the wedding-guests on the bride's side. Because Miss Taylor is an outsider (or was) at Highbury, and Mr Weston a resident, her friends and family would have travelled to attend the wedding, and now they've gone away again.

3. Emma is reflecting that she made herself unhappy by promoting Miss Taylor's marriage, because now she's gone away---"a black morning's work" means an evil deed or a foolish action, with unpleasant consequences.

Of course this is just Emma feeling lonely and sorry for herself. For a moment she's just like her father in disapproving weddings!

4. It would be more fair to say she's loving and caring, but not much of a disciplinarian.

As I suggested, though, governesses weren't always encouraged to discipline their charges, and in many cases were actively discouraged. It is hard for us to know the state of the Woodhouses when Miss Taylor arrived, but she would have been quite young and probably most concerned with making Isabella and Emma like her. (A governess with one comfortable post in her life was a very lucky governess indeed!)

But in terms of the effect on Emma in particular, we can see that's she's basically had her own way since she was four years old. It's really a miracle she's not much worse than she is!

5. I guess it's a matter of degrees---a valetudinarian fusses over their own health, but a hypochondriac is genuinely convinced something is wrong. Mr Woodhouse tends to toggle according his mood and other people's behaviour---and to be fair, he's as much concerned about other people's health as his own (or rather, he judges everyone by himself).

6. Thanks for that!

The question of distances is another thing I wanted to raise at the outset: it can be hard today to imagine how restricted and confined life could be before the coming of the railroads in 19th century England. People in general didn't move about much---certainly women did not---and distances that seem trivial to us were often treated as insurmountable barriers.

London is only sixteen miles from Highbury---but Emma has never been there. Conversely, John and Isabella Knightley live only sixteen miles away, but visit only once or twice a year. Miss Taylor has moved only half a mile away upon becoming Mrs Weston, but even that is treated as something that has to be planned for and negotiating in visiting.

And this geographical confinement is another of the forces that has shaped Emma---she's been held in one spot all her life, and tends to compensate for this physical limitation by putting no limitations on her imagination...

7. It was more prestigious not to live in a village, as such: to have a completely separate property away from where the "inferior" people lived. The "lawn and shrubberies" form a barrier between Hartfield and Highbury, but in spite of this Hartfield is still really a part of Highbury. (We can imagine Emma consoling herself with that lawn and those shrubberies, though!) Mr Knightley's estate, Donwell Abbey, is the district's most prestigious property.

8. From ancient times it was believed that human health (and therefore mood and behaviour) was controlled by "the humours", four bodily fluids that ideally were kept in balance, but which would cause ill health if they got out of balance: they were blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm. Medicine, such as it was, was built around restoring the balance.

This belief persisted through the 18th century; it was passing in the 19th, although bleeding someone to treat a fever was still common; but at this time "humour" was losing its original meaning and becoming a synonym for "mood".

Emma here admits that she can be moody, but as we see, her father immediately protests the suggestion she's less than perfect.

9. It's just a way of saying they'll always be seeing each other, even if they are not living under the same roof---that they will call upon each other all the time---that Miss Taylor hasn't really gone away.

10. He only thinks he can't walk half that far, which amounts to the same thing; he does walk that far on his own property, as we shall see.

11. We can read this as yet another instance of Emma managing her father---clearly she and Miss Taylor have managed Hannah's appointment between them, but Emma has convinced her father it was his idea, and that it would be a compliment to James to get his daughter a good appointment---probably to reconcile Mr Woodhouse to Hannah leaving. James imagining himself "slighted" if Hannah was not appointed is just more panicky fuss.

12. He's much worse than that---we'll meet an actual old maid presently in Miss Bates, who wouldn't dream of any such thing.

Of course this is really just another excuse to prevent a wedding...

13. Governesses didn't earn much and struggled to save, so a woman could work all her life and still starve in old age. Obviously this would not have been the case with Miss Tayor - the Woodhouses would certainly have supported her in one capacity or another - but nevertheless, Mr Knightley sees how vastly better off Miss Taylor is as Mrs Weston, as any governess would be in marrying: elevated from governess to wife, and provided for for the rest of her life. (And that's speaking only in material terms.) So while he appreciates that Emma and Mr Woodhouse will miss her, he wholly supports Miss Taylor leaving them to marry---and would have done so on purely practical grounds, we infer, even had it not been a love-match.

14. I don't think there's any real difference between "mizzle" and "drizzle", although some people use "mizzle" to describe that really fine, misty rain where it hardly seems to be raining at all.

Volume I, Chapter 2

15. The militia were England's "home guard". All throughout the Napoleonic Wars there was a fear that England would be invaded; so while the regular army was in Europe, in England itself there were militia units in each county. (The militia were also required to deal with civil unrest.) Establishing, manning and equipping such a unit was known as "embodying".

So Mr Weston became Captain Weston of the militia when a unit was embodied around Highbury.

16. It means that the Churchills were very rich, but Miss Churchill's private fortune was not as large as you might expect from her family's circumstances. (Most of the money went to her brother, in other words.)

17. There was no such thing at this time as legal adoption---a family could take in a child, raise it and care for it like one of their own, and then cut it off without a penny if they chose: there was no legal obligation.

This is why Frank's situaton with regard to the Churchills is so precarious: in theory he's the heir to a large fortune and estate, in practice they can cut him off completely at any moment.

The difficulties of "displaced people" is another recurrent theme in Austen, and we shall meet a second example of it in Emma with Jane Fairfax, who like Frank was taken away from her relatives in exchange for "advantages", but unlike him has no prospect of being financially supported and must find a position as governess to support herself.

18. Yes---if he loves someone, they must be perfect.

(My error: please see >81 lyzard:)

It is saying that Mr Weston can't believe that Mrs Churchill would really do anything to hurt Frank---that in spite of her "caprice", that is, her changes of mind and moodiness, which make life difficult for those around her, she loves him and will provide for him.

19. The suggestion is, Frank is all talk and no action. He's said all the right things, but he is yet to do the right thing.

(Just noting here that you have skipped 20.)

21. Mr Weston is cheerful and very sociable, and he's also a gentleman of leisure---so he's free every evening and happy to entertain or be entertained.

22. It's funny from a distance, but try living with it! We need to keep Mr Woodhouse in mind when judging Emma...

Phew! :)

Before we move on, I think we just need to note the introduction of Mr Knightley:

Mr Knightley, in fact, was one of the few people who could see faults in Emma Woodhouse, and the only one who ever told her of them...

Often in Austen's novels there is a character who acts as a kind of moral touchstone for the story; sometimes it's the heroine herself, who might be caught between her own feelings of right and wrong, and the pressure that her family and society put on her to behave as they want, rather than how she thinks she ought to.

Emma is very different in this respect, since Emma herself very frequently does wrong both consciously and unconsciously; and it is Mr Knightley who tends to act as the book's moral centre. (Though he is not completely above being influenced by negative feelings himself.)

Now! - does anyone have any other questions or comments about anything to do with Chapters 1 and 2?

How is everyone getting on?

Chapter 2

Ha!

Mr Perry knows which side his bread is buttered...

There was a strange rumour in Highbury of all the little Perrys being seen with a slice of Mrs. Weston's wedding-cake in their hands: but Mr Woodhouse would never believe it...

We're off to a great start! But how come it's grown so quiet here? Looks like it's just you and me for the moment, Liz! ;-)

7. I hadn't caught on that Mr Knightley lived in the 'best house' in the place, good you pointed it out.

9. This is a question I've had ever since I started reading JA, and in this case I think perhaps the sense of my question was lost as I understood the meaning of the sentence but was wondering about its construction, or style. In this particular case, I would have expected to read: "We shall always be meeting", but JA jumbles things around. Why? My point was that some of JA's sentence constructions seem quite odd at times. This is just one example among others I've come across and I'm wondering whether this was deliberate or perhaps just a style of her time?

11. So basically Emma and her father are constantly coddling each other? Good thing Mr Knightley is there to give them a reality check once in a while!

12. Looking forward to Miss Bates. I've forgotten all about her at present.

13. I guess the modern day equivalent of a 19th century governess would be the 20th and 21st century au pair. I was one for nearly a year, but was with friends of the family who treated me as one of their own and were very indulgent... so I had it very good, but I heard plenty of horror stories from other girls who were treated like servants and expected to do loads of housework and made to live in sordid little maid's rooms while looking after horridly spoiled monster children. Some didn't get paid at all with the excuse that all their living expenses were taken care of. Then there are the even far worse stories of girls made to relinquish their passports and forced to stay on in what essentially amounts to slavery. No hopes of any savings for them either!

14. Must say I quite like that word 'mizzle'.

15. AHA! 'Embodying' in the literal sense then, as in 'putting in bodies'. Never occurred to me that word could be put to use that way. Was that the original sense of the word or just an alternate one?

17. Do you think the 'displaced people' theme in JA's writing is directly influenced by her own life experience with her older brother?

18. Ah, so fairly naive, then...

20. What is it with me skipping numbers? And to think I always take pains to preview my posts and pointedly look over the numbering sequence before anything else?! Argh!

22. I know all too well what you mean, re: funny from a distance. If I look much closer to home, Mr Woodhouse quite resembles my own father in many ways, who has always been incredibly fussy about his health and diet. More in keeping with his own times though, he was a yogi for 25 years, practicing his yoga routine three times a day, baking his own unleavened bread, foregoing sugar and fats and goodness knows what else even though he was always very slender and later in life going in for all that 'new age nonsense' like magnets under the bed and I don't know what else. Eventually he got very ill for real, but it's always been difficult for me to take his concerns too seriously since he's always acted like even a mere cold could have disastrous consequences. Every time he goes into his food issues I roll my eyes and tell him I've heard it hundreds of times already... at least he doesn't try to get me to change my own diet!

>61 lyzard: Interesting point about 'moral touchstones'. I'm currently reading the last book in the Harry Potter series, which I never got to when they were originally published and your comment made me think as I was listening that Hermione Granger is precisely that person who acts as the moral compass in the series. Those types of personalities can be a bit overbearing or tedious at times, but oh so essential!

***

Have some reading to do, so will post questions on chapters 3 & 4 later today or possibly tomorrow depending on how the day goes. Hoping to find all kinds of comments by our participants by the time I come back!

I'm here, Ilana. But no book yet. I ordered the Belknap edition rom Amazon and it should arrive tomorrow. But, alas, I'm a slow reader these days. But I'll try to catch up.

I always love having Ilana as the tutee because she always asks questions I would never think of, and Liz's answers always expand my understanding.

Hopefully others will join in as they settle down! {*hint, hint*}

>65 catarina1:

No hurry - join us when you can!

>66 ronincats:

Thanks, Roni!

>64 Smiler69:

9. Austen's sentence structure is more correct than ours---she puts the adverb immediately before the verb, as it should be. :)

As with our tendency to use split infinitives, we break down the rules of grammar in conversation and it has been allowed to roll over into writing.

11. She coddles him, he flatters her! Mr Kinghtley gives Emma a regular dose of reality, but Mr Woodhouse is beyond help---everyone coddles him because of his age, position and disposition, as we shall see.

13. I heard plenty of horror stories from other girls who were treated like servants and expected to do loads of housework and made to live in sordid little maid's rooms while looking after horridly spoiled monster children...

And that is a very good description of what it was like for most governesses---adding in 19th century pay and living conditions.

Take notice of the attitude of Jane Fairfax when she turns up, who is destined to be a governess: she compares it seriously to a form of slavery. Miss Taylor was extraordinarily fortunate.

15. The military use of "embody" was actually the original sense of the word; later it came to have a more general meaning.

17. I'm sure it was influenced by Austen's own experiences, but it was not at all an uncommon thing at the time at this level of society.

Remember that at this time people were not really expected to make their own way in the world---it was all about your "connections" and what they could do for you (and this, in turn, underlies the obsession with "making a good marriage"). In fact, keep an eye out for how often the word "connections" appears in this novel.

Both Mr Weston and Mrs and Miss Bates give up their children in exchange for "advantages", and this was not unusual---rather they would be expected to do it, particularly since, in both cases, there is no mother in the question. Mothers had a better claim, but if the "advantages" were great enough, they too would be expected to relinquish their child.

18. Deluded. :)

22. Fathers, yes, sigh...

That sort of thing is easier to forgive at a time when medicine was primitive and minor illnesses often did have disastrous consequences.

Miss Bates is another brilliant example of this sort of thing, hilarious from a safe distance, not so funny up close.

>61 lyzard:, >64 Smiler69:

Being the moral touchstone is often a sad and lonely task. It's common to find one such character in any group; Hermione, certainly.

If we think about Austen--- In Sense And Sensibility, it's Elinor; in Mansfield Park, it's Fanny: think about how isolated those characters tend to be, how often the people around them "cut them out"---because their firm stands on principle are inconvenient, because they make other people uncomfortable.

It was probably easier to be a man in that position - "natural" authority plus freedom of movement and company - but there are plenty of times in Emma where we find an unhappy and dissatisfied Mr Knightley isolating himself.

Please continue to comment about our opening chapters, but in the meantime we should note that in Chapter 3 Austen begins to open up her narrative. Having spent the first two chapters delineating Emma's immediate situation and background, now she begins to describe the village of Highbury and some of its residents. This further "places" Emma, as we see the social gap that exists between herself and all her neighbours, excepting only the families at Randalls and Donwell Abbey. In fact, Austen very subtly allows us to judge the little class gradations that exist and to understand who sits just slightly above or below anyone else.

We also see that the whole of Highbury conspires to pander to Mr Woodhouse's peculiarities. :)

>70 lyzard: I'll have to reread that chapter more closely! Haven't done my reading today, so I'll hopefully be back tomorrow with further comments. This gives more time for our participants to get started.

Are we told how old Miss Taylor/Mrs Weston is, or how many years separate Miss Taylor and Emma? I'm trying to put their relationship in context by age.

No, not explicitly; but it was likely that she was in her early twenties when she took up her position, as is the case with Jane Fairfax: young women destined for governessing often spent a year or two extra on their education.

That would make her in her mid-thirties now, about fifteen years older than Emma---close enough for them be be "like sisters", as we are told, since families during the 19th century often had children born over a period of twenty years.

Thanks--that sounds about right.

>69 lyzard: I'm finding the moral touchetone conversation very interesting. I think I have a lot of sympathy for Fanny, Mr Knightley and Elinor.

Now trying to figure out who the moral touchstone characters are in Austen's other novels. I think Anne Eliott for Persuasion - not sure about P&P or Northanger Abbey.

I'm not commenting much on Emma because I've zoomed ahead and all the things I can think to say involve spoilers. I'm particularly enjoying how Austen sets things up in this book.

I'm all over the place today with too many distractions to do anything as disciplined as sitting down with a book and taking notes. Or following any specific train of thought for that matter! So, not directly related to this tutorial, but definitely having to do with Jane Austen, this challenge which has just been announced and for which I'm more than tempted to stretch my drawing skills for:

The Book Illustration Competition is a unique partnership between House of Illustration and The Folio Society that seeks to identify and promote new talent in illustration.
The competition is open to illustrators over the age of 18, both student and professional, who have not been previously published by The Folio Society.

This year we are asking entrants to submit three illustrations and a binding design for Mansfield Park by Jane Austen. The winner will receive a highly sought-after commission, worth £5,000, to complete a total of nine illustrations and a binding design for the book, which will be published by The Folio Society in 2017. Five runners up will each receive £500 cash. Three of the six prizes are awarded to student entries.
If you are an artist, or know one who might be interested, this is a fantastic opportunity. Start working on your entry!

Mansfield Park will be the fourth in a series of Austen books published by The Folio Society (http://www.foliosociety.com/search/?q=Jane%20Austen), following editions of Pride and Prejudice, Emma and Sense and Sensibility. Those of you who participated in the Pride and Prejudice tutorial may remember I posted a few illustrations from that particular Folio edition... I'm a huge Folio fan and MP seems like a great book to illustrate.

Thinking of possibilities already, and I'd definitely have to do a ha-ha scene and one from the repetition of the play!
Your opinion and comments welcome!

Brilliant idea, Ilana - go for it! :)

I would suggest Fanny and Edmund sitting on the stairs as children, when he first befriends her. And perhaps Fanny dressed for the ball, wearing William's amber cross on Edmund's chain (also Henry's chain!).

>75 souloftherose:

The interesting thing about Pride And Prejudice is that it doesn't have one---they each have to learn from the other. In Northanger Abbey, the issue is slightly different. Catherine's general judement is very good, but she has to learn to keep her imagination in check---which is something she shares with Emma.

Please put in a bookmark and/or make a note of your points, Heather! - there's nothing worse than "Oh, I can't remember what I was going to say..." :D

>56 Smiler69:
18. but it was not in Mr. Weston's nature to imagine that any caprice could be strong enough to affect one so dear,
Is she saying he is basically blind to the faults of anyone dear to him?

>59 lyzard:
18. Yes---if he loves someone, they must be perfect.

I'm confused. I thought this was saying that he couldn't imagine his son being mistreated in any way by the adoptive parents.

Chapter 3 also introduces one of most uncomfortable aspects of Emma, namely, the character of Harriet Smith.

She was not struck by any thing remarkably clever in Miss Smith's conversation, but she found her altogether very engaging---not inconveniently shy, not unwilling to talk---and yet so far from pushing, shewing so proper and becoming a deference, seeming so pleasantly grateful for being admitted to Hartfield, and so artlessly impressed by the appearance of every thing in so superior a style to what she had been used to, that she must have good sense, and deserve encouragement.

Emma unquestionably shows her worst side in her dealings with Harriet, but it is important that we look at the bigger picture when correctly interpreting their relationship; this is something best discussed in context of Chapter 4, where we are given a close look at the two of them interacting.

>79 eclecticdodo:

Sorry!! That's me: I had a brain-melt and read that as Mr Woodhouse; I will fix the points above.

Yes, you are correct: Mr Weston can't believe that Mrs Churchill, for all of her vagaries, doesn't love Frank too much to do anything to really hurt him.

Good catch, thanks!

oh yay, I'm actually understanding it.
I'm quite enjoying it actually.

Good to hear! :)

>80 lyzard: I can see you're itching to get ahead, Liz, and I don't seem to be holding up my end these past couple of days. Going to take in the dahlias at the botanical gardens today, but hopefully can catch up on my reading this evening. Sorry for stalling, everyone.

While we're waiting I can ask if anyone has read Emma: a Modern Retelling by Alexander McCall Smith, and part of the Austen Project. \

I read it last year and while I found it entertaining enough, I had lots of problems with it. I'm not sure the story of Emma translates very well in to our modern world.

>85 Nickelini: The movie Clueless is a pretty good modern adaptation!

I'm also a big fan of a web series called "Emma Approved" (https://youtu.be/aeeXkf8LZ_8?list=PL_ePOdU-b3xcKOsj8aU2Tnztt6N9mEmur). I think they messed up the big twist, but they got the characterizations and world-building really well. I guess the key to a good modern Emma is to set it in southern California!

I actually think that the concept of Emma makes a better modern adaptation than Pride & Prejudice does. So much of P&P hinges on the idea that the parents' welfare is dependent on their daughters getting married to rich men, and that's not much of a thing anymore.

>86 norabelle414: Yay for 'Emma Approved' love - I also thought it was a really good retelling.

I read Alexander McCall Smith's Emma last year and I didn't think it worked well as a retelling. I had a lot of problems with it, too. I'm another who loved Emma Approved. And Clueless.

>86 norabelle414: I will definitely check out Emma Approved. Sounds interesting.

Yes, Clueless was pretty good. It's been sort of sullied for me by listening to some fan girls discuss it in great detail and gush over every second of it as if it were the best movie ever made, but that's not the film's fault now, is it!

I'm not big on reworkings and reimaginings, but I think Clueless is pretty clever.

>84 Smiler69:

Okay, what we might do in the meantime is to take a closer look at the relationship that develops between Emma and Harriet over Chapters 3 and 4, because this is very important both in plot terms and in delineating Emma's situation and character.

Broadly, Emma's attitude to Harriet is pretty shocking---and I would suggest that it is meant to be, that no-one (even contemporary readers, living within the same class system) would have found this an acceptable arrangement.

...a Harriet Smith, therefore, one whom she could summon at any time to a walk, would be a valuable addition to her privileges...

The use of the determiner here speaks for itself - "a" Harriet Smith - we see immediately that Harriet herself is not important, not as an individual, merely as a convenience to Emma, who treats Harriet more like a Barbie doll than a real person.

Her early attachment to herself was very amiable; and her inclination for good company, and power of appreciating what was elegant and clever, shewed that there was no want of taste, though strength of understanding must not be expected. Altogether she was quite convinced of Harriet Smith's being exactly the young friend she wanted---exactly the something which her home required...

I would argue that Austen's presentation of Emma is deliberately provocative---that she foregrounds Emma's faults and bad behaviour, and tucks the reasons for them away in the background, where they can only be revealed by careful reading.

The further the novel unfolds, the more striking is the fact of Emma's isolation, both in an immediate, practical sense, and because of the class system within which she lives.

Things were easier for men in this respect: men were permitted to "mingle", to have friendships across class barriers (without ever losing sight of those barriers); women, particularly young, unmarried women, had no such latitude. There is no-one of Emma's own social standing in Highbury (with one exception, who we'll come back to); consequently, she has no friends her own age. In fact, she spends most of her time either alone or with her father who, as has already been remarked, "was no companion for her". She lacks both simple company and anyone to connect with emotionally, and the way she latches onto Harriet shows how desperate she is.

In fact she's so desperate that she takes drastic, unforgiveable to action to ensure she is not separated from Harriet. When Harriet reveals her connection with the Martins - who are good, respectable people - Emma sees that she is in danger of losing her new toy and ruthlessly interferes in that friendship (which is, of course, an infinitely more appropriate and genuine connection than that between herself and Harriet):

"A young farmer, whether on horseback or on foot, is the very last sort of person to raise my curiosity. The yeomanry are precisely the order of people with whom I feel I can have nothing to do."

     "He is very plain, undoubtedly---remarkably plain:---but that is nothing compared with his entire want of gentility. I had no right to expect much, and I did not expect much; but I had no idea that he could be so very clownish, so totally without air. I had imagined him, I confess, a degree or two nearer gentility."
    "To be sure," said Harriet, in a mortified voice, "he is not so genteel as real gentlemen."
    "I think, Harriet, since your acquaintance with us, you have been repeatedly in the company of some such very real gentlemen, that you must yourself be struck with the difference in Mr. Martin. At Hartfield, you have had very good specimens of well educated, well bred men. I should be surprised if, after seeing them, you could be in company with Mr Martin again without perceiving him to be a very inferior creature---and rather wondering at yourself for having ever thought him at all agreeable before. Do not you begin to feel that now? Were not you struck? I am sure you must have been struck by his awkward look and abrupt manner, and the uncouthness of a voice which I heard to be wholly unmodulated as I stood here."

    "The older a person grows, Harriet, the more important it is that their manners should not be bad; the more glaring and disgusting any loudness, or coarseness, or awkwardness becomes. What is passable in youth is detestable in later age. Mr Martin is now awkward and abrupt; what will he be at Mr Weston's time of life?"
    "There is no saying, indeed," replied Harriet rather solemnly.
    "But there may be pretty good guessing. He will be a completely gross, vulgar farmer, totally inattentive to appearances, and thinking of nothing but profit and loss."

Appalling as all this is, it is important to keep in mind that Emma is exaggerating for effect: we should not take what she says at face-value. Her motives are what matters here, not the specifics of her tactics. We are certainly not meant to approve at any point her behaviour here, but we do need to understand why she's doing it.

Chapter 4 also picks up the match-making theme from Chapter 1, as Emma begins toying with the idea of pairing off Harriet and the young vicar, Mr Elton.

Emma's match-making schemes are another illustration of her weirdly isolated state. There's a sense of "transference" in her constant fantasies about other people falling in love and marrying, while she herself swears she will never marry. She seems afraid of deep emotional connection herself, and prefers to live vicariously through other people's relationships.

At the same time, Emma's match-making is another illustration of her other dominant fantasy, herself as a superior being wielding power over the people of Highbury.

This novel is shot through with pronouncements that paint Emma as a dreadful class snob (even for the time in which she is living), but here again Austen is playing her double-game.

I would suggest that, unconsciously, Emma consoles herself for her loneliness by painting a mental picture of herself as "The Great Miss Woodhouse": she has no friends because she's just too good for everyone else. We catch her again and again thinking how much she doesn't want to spend her time with the Highbury people---and what an honour it is for them when she does.

We also note that she uses this attitude as an excuse for neglecting unpleasant social duties---duties which she knows perfectly well "The Great Miss Woodhouse" should be fulfilling---and that she breaks her rules of social isolation fast enough when it suits her.

In fact, one of the most striking characteristics of Emma is her powerful fantasy life.

It was not considered a good thing at the time for young ladies to have "imagination", which was likely to make them dissatisfied with reality (this is one of the reasons that novel-reading was disapproved).

Austen, I believes, thinks an active imagination a good and positive thing - as a novelist, she would, of course - but only if that imagination was kept in proper check and was not allowed to impact real life and its duties.

This is a theme that she first examined in Northanger Abbey (published after Emma, but drafted many years before). However, she treats Catherine's misadventures far more lightly and comically; whereas in Emma we see the real dangers that could arise from allowing fantasy to intrude upon reality.

Okay---that's quite enough out of me for the time being! What do other people think of these points?

I would have expected Mrs. Weston to have noticed Emma's social isolation and the effect it was having on her character since she spent so many years with her and watched her develop. Does Austen have a reason for making Mr. Knightly the only one who sees this?

Emma's situation isn't unusual for a girl of her class, except that more commonly there would be brothers and sisters and cousins, at least. It is perhaps more striking to us than to contemporary readers.

As for Miss Taylor noticing the effects of isolation on Emma, we know she's one of those who can't see a fault in her, so she wouldn't be likely to see what she would regard as a common situation as a problem.

The important point is that Emma's situation is not anything she can change; Highbury is as it is; the issue is how she responds to it.

We can imagine Miss Taylor hesitating to leave the Woodhouses (and this is behind Mr Knightley's remark, as noticed by Ilana, "I have a great regard for you and Emma; but when it comes to the question of dependence or independence!"), though of course at last she makes the sensible decision.

Mr Knightley seems to be trying to fill the void but he is a man and not family and not living in the house, so he can only do his best with frequent visits. But Emma needs real companionship and her options are very limited.

In Chapter 5 there is a lengthy conversation between Mr Knightley and Mrs Weston which is very revealing of their very different viewpoints with regard to Emma, especially given that these are the two people who know her best (or should) and who most have her welfare at heart.

In previous readings, I saw Emma and Harriet as friends, although not necessarily equals, and, from Emma's point of view. as "helping" a friend, rather than from selfish purposes. In this reading, I'm getting more the sense of Harriet being Emma's "project", sort of like Prof Higgins & Eliza Doolittle.

Yes, good comparison.

I'm sure she thinks she is helping, but the selfishness underlying the way she's doing it is pretty apparent.

Finally, had time and capacity to do some homework! Thanks for the background on the following chapters, Liz. I had almost finished reading chapter 3 when I posted my first round of questions, but after reading your comments, I went back a reread it more closely. Following are questions on chapters 3-5, which I'll post chapter by chapter.

Volume I, Chapter III

23. "he could command the visits of his own little circle, in a great measure, as he liked." ... "his horror of late hours, and large dinner-parties, made him unfit for any acquaintance but such as would visit him on his own terms."
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

24. among the most come-at-able of whom were Mrs. and Miss Bates, and Mrs. Goddard, three ladies almost always at the service of an invitation from Hartfield, and who were fetched and carried home so often, that Mr. Woodhouse thought it no hardship for either James or the horses. Had it taken place only once a year, it would have been a grievance.
a) what does come-at able mean? Is this expression still in use?
b) why would it have been a grievance if only once a year?

25. Mrs Bates, the widow of a former vicar of Highbury, was a very old lady, almost past every thing but tea and quadrille.
I understand she means Mrs Bates was too old for most things, but why quadrille? I know it's a sort of dance because of Alice in Wonderland's "Lobster Quadrille", but that's about it...

26. Miss Bates stood in the very worst predicament in the world for having much of the public favour;
Why would having the public favour be a bad predicament?

27. Mrs Goddard was the mistress of a School—not of a seminary, or an establishment, or any thing which professed, in long sentences of refined nonsense, to combine liberal acquirements with elegant morality, upon new principles and new systems
Which 'new principles and systems' would JA be referring to?

28. What are chilblains? I've come across this word often and have no idea what it means.

29. These were the ladies whom Emma found herself very frequently able to collect
On the lines of what you were saying about 'a Harriet Smith', here we see why her attitude to the girl isn't at all unusual for her, given her mindset; seeing the ladies as mere 'collectibles'.

30. but the quiet prosings of three such women made her feel that every evening so spent was indeed one of the long evenings she had fearfully anticipated.
I've not seen the word prose being used in this kind of context before... what is she alluding to? That they are long-winded?

31. Somebody had placed her, several years back, at Mrs. Goddard's school, and somebody had lately raised her from the condition of scholar to that of parlour-boarder.
a) Why the repetition of the pronoun 'somebody' in this passage?
b) please explain what is meant in the bolded section.

32. but the humble, grateful little girl went off with highly gratified feelings, delighted with the affability with which Miss Woodhouse had treated her all the evening, and actually shaken hands with her at last!
Why is the shaking of hands so special here?

***

Chapter 4 follows.

Volume I, Chapter IV

33. Her early attachment to herself was very amiable; and her inclination for good company, and power of appreciating what was elegant and clever, shewed that there was no want of taste, though strength of understanding must not be expected.
Here is an example of 'free indirect speech', which JA is famous for, but which also confuses me. It's clear to me Emma thinks this of her, but does JA also believe Harriet lacks understanding, do you think?

34. Altogether she was quite convinced of Harriet Smith's being exactly the young friend she wanted—exactly the something which her home required.
The nerve! She probably had many collections of pretty things in later life... unless she just continued to collect people, but somehow I think Mr Knightley wouldn't have let her treat people that way once they were married.

35. Such a friend as Mrs Weston was out of the question. Two such could never be granted. Two such she did not want.
Why would Emma not want another relationship like the one she has with her beloved Mrs Weston?

36. "and enjoying the youthful simplicity which could speak with so much exultation of Mrs Martin's having "two parlours, two very good parlours, indeed; one of them quite as large as Mrs Goddard's drawing-room; and of her having an upper maid who had lived five-and-twenty years with her" ... "and of their having a very handsome summer-house in their garden, where some day next year they were all to drink tea:—a very handsome summer-house, large enough to hold a dozen people."
Young Mr Martin may not be a gentleman, but they sound as though they live quite comfortably for farmers.

37. What are the Elegant Extracts? An anthology of some sorts I gather but more specifics on the reading material described please.

38. Please explain the concept of yeomanry.

Volume I, Chapter V

39. I wonder at the relationship between Mr Kingsley and Mrs Weston. They have a discussion about Emma which sounds as though they were quite equals, but after all, as Miss Taylor she was in a different social class than her was (considered his inferior, I would surmise). Please explain this dynamic.

40. "Why, to own the truth, I am afraid you are rather thrown away, and that with every disposition to bear, there will be nothing to be borne. We will not despair, however. Weston may grow cross from the wantonness of comfort, or his son may plague him."
I don't understand what he's saying here. Being sarcastic, I gather?

41. "Such an eye!—the true hazle eye—and so brilliant!
Were hazel eyes particularly desirable? Are they now? I've looked it up, but still not sure what hazel looks like as an eye colour.

42. "I have a very sincere interest in Emma."
Should we read more into this than just a brotherly/friendly interest? So early in the novel?

***

That's all for now! Have at it Liz! :-)

As an aside, I've ordered Emma and Sense and Sensibility from the Folio Society, which are produced in series with Pride and Prejudice, which they published first and which I own, as some of you may recall. Both books have been out for a while and I had no intention of purchasing them because wasn't wild about the illustrations as I was with the ones in P&P, but now they have become ESSENTIAL as research material for my illustrations for Mansfield Park of course... :-)

... speaking of Folio, they posted the following on their Facebook page recently. I thought many of you could relate... certainly most Folio Society addicts can, as their books are NOT cheap.

>99 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter 3

23. Well, no! :D

That's another point about Emma, she's only expecting for herself what her father has always had because of his position.

24.
(a) Easiest to get---not just geographically, but in the sense that these three are nearly always available, even at very short notice, and because of the slight difference in class: they are unlikely to refuse an invitation to Hartfield.
(b) Mr Woodhouse doesn't like change. He can get used to things in time, but anything new upsets him. If the guests had come once a year he would fret over every part of the process, but because they come all the time it is accepted as "normal".

25. Quadrille is also a card game. It needs two sets of partners, which is why Emma invites three guests for her father.

26. Her situation is the kind that does not usually receive public favour ("a woman neither young, handsome, rich, nor married...she had no intellectual superiority to make atonement to herself, or frighten those who might hate her into outward respect. She had never boasted either beauty or cleverness...").

Yet people generally are very mindful of her difficult situation and usually show her more "favour" than someone of her circumstances and character might expect.

27. At this time people were considering the shocking idea that maybe, just maybe, female education should consist of more than music, needlework and deportment lessons. :)

There were a lot of new ideas around about the education of children and young women, and new schools were founded that advertised themselves as specialising in this or that, but Mrs Goddard sticks to the old system of focusing on accomplishments, not knowledge.

28. It's a condition caused by the cold, an inflammation of the blood vessels in the extremities (fingers, toes, nose, etc.) when low temperatures interfere with circulation. They can be very painful and itchy.

29. Less blamable in this instance, as she is thinking of her father and the ladies like to be "collected", but the attitude is the same, yes.

30. Prosing is dull and/or trivial talk, with the sense of long-windedness.

31.
(a) "Parlour-border" in the general sense means a boarder, or lodger, who is treated as one of the family---who shares the family's rooms and meals. In Harriet's case, it means that she has completed whatever education Mrs Goddard offers but is still living at the school---the implication is that she is not wanted anywhere else, and Mrs Goddard is being paid to keep her as a boarder.
(b) The repetition is to emphasise that no-one (except possibly Mrs Goddard) knows who Harriet's father is---or what he is, socially speaking. Emma immediately assumes that Harriet's father is "a gentleman", because it suits her to think so, but no-one actually knows.

32. Shaking hands is a mark of favour, even of equality.

>100 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter IV

33. Well, I think we're expected to make up our own minds about that---or, alternatively, we can trust Mr Knightley's judgement on the subject. :)

(Note, though, that Mr Knightley's opinion of Harriet does change over the course of the narrative.)

34. It would depend on what her situation was, and how different her life became in time.

35. I think this is another example of Emma consoling herself for what she doesn't / can't have---there is no possible chance of her finding another such special friend, therefore she tells herself she doesn't want one.

36. Yes, and that is EXACTLY the point! This is why Austen emphasises that "somebody" in Harriet's life: she could be anyone and anything, and in the reality of the time, Robert Martin and Abbey-Mill Farm is a great deal more than someone in Harriet's situation has any right to aspire to. Austen's readers would have understood, and been horrified at, how wrong Emma is not just in discouraging Harriet from thinking of the Martins, but in encouraging her to look higher.

37. I'm glad you brought this up, because it's a very important point. We can tell a lot about Austen's characters from what they read, and here she is telling us something noteworthy about Robert Martin.

There were two different sets of Elegant Extracts, the Elegant Extracts Of Prose and the Elegant Extracts Of Poetry. These were anthologies collected by Vicesimus Knox, who was the headmaster of a well-known school, during the 1790s, and remained popular for many years. Knox had what were regarded as "advanced" ideas on education - he thought girls should be properly educated as well as boys, gasp! - and the Extracts were meant for the "improvement" of young people---the passages and verse he collected were chosen both for their excellence as writing and for their high moral tone.

The collections were extremely popular for family reading and considered particularly desirable for girls. Jane Austen herself owned them and admired them, and gave them as presents.

So---the fact that Robert Martin owns and reads the Extracts too is very significant, and tells us that he is a serious and intelligent young man, and one with good taste---as opposed to Emma's brutally unfair summation of him to Harriet. (Note, too, that mention of the Extracts should have conveyed this to Emma, and probably did; not that she would admit it.)

The other point of note in this passage is this:

"He never read The Romance of the Forest, nor The Children of the Abbey. He had never heard of such books before I mentioned them..."

We not surprised that Harriet only reads novels, but we shouldn't condemn her for her taste---Austen herself read a mountain of such books, and these are two of the better and most popular ones of the time. The Romance Of The Forest was Ann Radcliffe's breakthrough novel, which preceded her monster hit, The Mysteries Of Udolpho; while The Children Of The Abbey was by Regina Maria Roche, another successful Gothic novelist.

If we know our Austen, we realise that Harriet shares her taste in books with Catherine Moreland of Northanger Abbey. :)

38. Traditionally the yeomanry were a class of farmers who owned and cultivated their own land, as opposed to leasing a farm and paying rent out of the proceeds of their produce, but by this time the term was sometimes used interchangeably with "farmers". Generally the yeomanry were considered a very respectable set of people, albeit not "gentlefolk".

>101 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter V

I wonder at the relationship between Mr Kingsley and Mrs Weston.

Thank you, but I think you mean "Mr Knightley"! :D

39. It is important to remember that at this time, all governesses would have been ladies by upbringing---but ladies who were forced to take a social step down because of financial necessity.

Many people would have believed that as soon as a woman took wages in exchange for work, she ceased to be a lady. (Although this is something that became more "enforced" later in the 19th century.) But since, clearly, Miss Taylor was always treated as "one of the family" by the Woodhouses, Highbury would have taken its cue from this and treated her accordingly.

In addition, Mr Knightley is the kind of man who would be more polite and considerate, not less, to a woman in this situation. He would not stop treating her as his social equal, whatever society in general might do. In addition, he has known Miss Taylor since she came to the Woodhouses sixteen or seventeen years ago, so what would have started as an exchange of consideration and gratitude has had time to become a friendship. And now that she has been elevated socially by her marriage, there is a proper equality between them.

Of course, they are also connected by their mutual concern for Emma, although as we shall see their viewpoints are very different.

40. Joking, certainly. He's suggesting that Mr Weston is a lot less demanding than Emma used to be, and that Mrs Weston has less to put up with than Miss Taylor did; that Emma "trained" her to be submissive and put-upon, but all that is now going to waste.

41. Hazel is a mix of colours, usually with a key-note colour: often you'd say green-hazel or brown-hazel. It does sound as if it was popular at the time.

By the way---it is pretty clearly implied, if not stated outright, that Emma is a brunette---and it drives me nuts that in every single adaptation of Emma, they cast a blonde!

(Apart from the hazel eyes, the fact that Emma chooses Harriet as her foil - her beauty happened to be of a sort which Emma particularly admired. She was short, plump, and fair, with a fine bloom, blue eyes, light hair - while avoiding dark-haired Jane Fairfax, makes it fairly certain that Emma is dark herself.)

42. Not necessarily.

Chapter V is important, as previously noted, for giving us outsiders' views of Emma, who previously we've seen chiefly from her own perspective.

The conversation between Mr Knightley and Mrs Weston arises over Emma's friendship, or which we have seen enough up-close to recognise as based on all the wrong things---and we are vindicated in this reading by finding it is shared by Mr Knightley.

"I think her the very worst sort of companion that Emma could possibly have. She knows nothing herself, and looks upon Emma as knowing every thing. She is a flatterer in all her ways; and so much the worse, because undesigned. Her ignorance is hourly flattery. How can Emma imagine she has any thing to learn herself, while Harriet is presenting such a delightful inferiority? And as for Harriet, I will venture to say that she cannot gain by the acquaintance. Hartfield will only put her out of conceit with all the other places she belongs to. She will grow just refined enough to be uncomfortable with those among whom birth and circumstances have placed her home. I am much mistaken if Emma's doctrines give any strength of mind, or tend at all to make a girl adapt herself rationally to the varieties of her situation in life.---They only give a little polish."

It is typical of Mr Knightley that he is every bit as worried about the effect upon Harriet of this "friendship", as he is about its effect on Emma---in fact he sees it is likely to be damaging to her in the long term.

We are not surprised to see that Mr Knightley is taking a more balanced view of the matter than Mrs Weston, who is considering Emma's situation far more than Harriet's; likewise sorry that Emma's friend is her social inferior, but considering any friendship desirable at this time:

"We were speaking of it only yesterday, and agreeing how fortunate it was for Emma, that there should be such a girl in Highbury for her to associate with. Mr Knightley, I shall not allow you to be a fair judge in this case. You are so much used to live alone, that you do not know the value of a companion; and, perhaps no man can be a good judge of the comfort a woman feels in the society of one of her own sex, after being used to it all her life. I can imagine your objection to Harriet Smith. She is not the superior young woman which Emma's friend ought to be."

This conversation is very revealing about the characters and attitudes of the two people who have the greatest interest in, and the greatest influence with, Emma---and that more Mr Knightley and less Miss Taylor might have been better for her:

"I have not a fault to find with her person," he replied. "I think her all you describe. I love to look at her; and I will add this praise, that I do not think her personally vain. Considering how very handsome she is, she appears to be little occupied with it; her vanity lies another way."

"With all dear Emma's little faults, she is an excellent creature. Where shall we see a better daughter, or a kinder sister, or a truer friend? No, no; she has qualities which may be trusted; she will never lead any one really wrong; she will make no lasting blunder..."

Although to be fair, Mrs Weston is quite right about Emma as a daughter and a sister.

This summing-up of Emma by Mr Knightley is another important aspect of Chapter V:

"Emma has been meaning to read more ever since she was twelve years old. I have seen a great many lists of her drawing-up at various times of books that she meant to read regularly through---and very good lists they were—very well chosen, and very neatly arranged---sometimes alphabetically, and sometimes by some other rule. The list she drew up when only fourteen---I remember thinking it did her judgement so much credit, that I preserved it some time; and I dare say she may have made out a very good list now. But I have done with expecting any course of steady reading from Emma. She will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding."

Of course, this quote is important to me for another reason:

Ahem.

Lately I'm afraid I've been about as steady as Emma, but unlike her I'm trying to get back on track... :D

Just saw this and starting to catch up. I read this quite a while ago and have seen TV versions. Here are a few things that strike me about Chapters 1 to 3

Chapter 1
Emma misses Miss Taylor but Mr Woodhouse voices it and Emma tries to cheer him. She can’t express how she feels because her father is more over the top and as the woman she is to make his life easier and cheerful.

Chapters 1 & 2
Emma as a matchmaker….. 4 years to make a match seems silly to claim. But Knightley’s entire denial of it seems off too. She could have certainly influenced in the negative if she tried to with Miss Taylor, but her description of small encouragements seems to be realistic.
But then in Chapter 2 it is contrasted with the view from Mr Weston’s description. From his view it is happening because he has now arranged his life to be ready for a wife, so he found one. Emma had no influence on his thinking.

Chapter 3
Emma’s lunge at Harriet Smith seems to be coming from loneliness and boredom. But it is a very controlling relationship she is imagining…. “detach her from her bad acquaintance” etc. Is she trying to create someone as focused on her as Miss Taylor used to be? Harriet is also the 1st person we have seen close to age with her, so it does seem logical for her to have an interest in her. But she has such a uncharted background. With her class consciousness, how does Emma justify that she is worthy of more? Just her looks & admiration of Emma?

Thank you for joining us!

Chapter I

Yes, she subsumes her own feelings to comfort him; he makes no effort to comfort her and isn't really conscious that she needs comfort. Mr Knightley is, and that's why he shows up.

Chapter II

Emma certainly had nothing to do with Mr Weston's thinking but we can credit her, if not really with "encouraging", still less "making" the match, at least with not standing in Miss Taylor's way---she could have made it very difficult for her had she chosen to, played on Miss Taylor's feelings of gratitude and guilt, but clearly she has done nothing of that kind.

Emma's subsequent attempts at match-making are another illustration of her powerful fantasy life. She really only tells herself that she "made" the match to console herself for her loss - patting herself on the back for her own unselfishness - but the idea takes a firm grip on her imagination, and before we know it, it's running away with her...

Chapter III

Yes, I think she wants / needs another person for whom she is the centre of the universe. She detaches Harriet from the Martins both because she doesn't want to lose her new friend, and because she doesn't want to share her thoughts and affections.

On some level Emma is perfectly aware that Harriet is an unsuitable friend, so she justifies it to herself with this fantasy (more fantasy!) about Harriet's background.

In some respects Harriet is like a fairy-tale foundling---only, while fairy-tale foundlings turn out to be lost princesses, this is Real Life With Jane Austen. :)

Regarding Harriet's background, this subplot is a perfect illustration of how much society changed - and tightened up, morality-wise - between Regency England and Victorian England!

A generation or so later, Harriet would have been hidden away; Emma would not have been permitted to make a friend out of her, or even to know her; and certainly her friend's illegitimacy wouldn't have been the topic of casual conversation!

Chapter IV

Her first attempts at usefulness were in an endeavour to find out who were the parents, but Harriet could not tell. She was ready to tell every thing in her power, but on this subject questions were vain. Emma was obliged to fancy what she liked---but she could never believe that in the same situation she should not have discovered the truth. Harriet had no penetration. She had been satisfied to hear and believe just what Mrs. Goddard chose to tell her; and looked no farther.

Chapter 5
40. The wording is so strange. It really stopped me too. The 2nd sentence gives me the idea but the first is pretty incomprehensible

“She is a flatterer in all her ways; and so much the worse, because undesigned.”
What does “because undesigned” mean? I get the meaning of the whole passage but this phrase doesnt follow for me.

“one of our quarrels about Emma”
Mr Knightley is rather interfering!! and has been for some time

and although we know that Emma is hanging with Harriet for the wrong/selfish reasons, Mr Knightley is way to judgy about it. He sees the problem, but there are no people of her station to improve Emma, so who does he expect her to spend time with.

Chapter V

It means that Harriet isn't intentionally flattering Emma - "toad-eating", in the phrase of the time - but that spending time with Harriet's "delightful inferiority" is making Emma even more satisfied with herself.

Mr Knightley may be interfering but conversely we can't think Mrs Weston's inability to see a fault in Emma as a good thing.

It's really two different perspectives on the situation with no real right or wrong: Mrs Weston is concerned with Emma's immediate comfort, whereas Mr Knightley is concerned about the long-term consequences. It's a question of whether the "wrong" friendship is better than no friendship at all.

>93 lyzard: Thanks for mentioning Emma's fantasy life - I've been noticing that more and more as I read through the book.

What also struck me about Chapter V was that it's nearly all dialogue which I don't remember noticing before.

I've always thought hazel eyes rather plain and ordinary (perhaps because I have them) so it's nice to find that they were desirable at the time

I am happily lurking as I enjoy my read of Emma so much more than the first time I read her. I am finding the to(ing) & fro(ing) between the queries & their responses, so I am just enjoying my reading and coming here o read all of the comments. I do find this thread so very interesting and am appreciating all of your comments.

>114 souloftherose:

It's a natural enough response to the restrictions and emotional lack in her life, but not when she starts acting on her fantasies (and passing them off as "insights").

I think that shows how much Austen wants us to focus on those opposing perspectives of Emma.

>115 eclecticdodo:

So do I. :)

>116 rainpebble:

That's great, Belva!

Following up on this comment from Chapter 3:

(a) "Parlour-border" in the general sense means a boarder, or lodger, who is treated as one of the family---who shares the family's rooms and meals. In Harriet's case, it means that she has completed whatever education Mrs Goddard offers but is still living at the school---the implication is that she is not wanted anywhere else, and Mrs Goddard is being paid to keep her as a boarder.

When I read this passage on my own, my assumption was that she was working in Mrs Goddard's school to pay for her room and board, but that appears not to be so? Just who is paying Mrs Goddard to keep her? And why? Are we meant to think it's the mysterious somebody mentioned earlier in the passage? Perhaps her absent father? Or was there a sort of "unfortunates fund" that provided such funds?

I've just read chapters 6 and 7 and have very few questions to ask. Have an outing this afternoon and no time to write much at the moment, but I WILL say that chapter 7 made me extremely angry with Emma and had me uttering many an expletive against her. I'll post a very few questions and comments later today.

>118 rosalita:

No, in fact Harriet's standing has improved if anything: she's a guest now rather than a student, which is why she was given the treat of being taken to Hartfield.

Harriet's father is paying for her board; he's just being very careful that no-one finds out who he is (he's presumably in a position where an illegitimate child would be embarrassing), which leaves Emma's imagination with wriggle-room.

Children like Harriet were usually dumped somewhere permanently, usually with lower-class foster parents who were paid for their trouble, and often left to fend for themselves; so she is better cared for than most, albeit that the education she has received isn't going to help her earn a living if need be.

>119 Smiler69:

You don't HAVE to have questions---comments (with or without expletives) will do! :D

expectations of marrying

in these type of books it does seem that all girls are expected to get married, and if they didnt you feel sorry for them. In some other novels in a different setting they have an idea that the youngest daughter would not marry and instead stay and take care of the parent (mother in the examples I can think of)
just thinking about it since emma is not thinking about marrying herself.

Was this a thing in this setting?

Here is what I took down in my notebook for the two chapters previously mentioned:

Volume I, Chapter VI

43. What is a cockade? I keep forgetting.

44. This did not want much of being finished, when I put it away in a pet
What does this mean? I've never seen the word 'pet' used this way.

45. but he does sigh and languish, and study for compliments rather more than I could endure as a principal. I come in for a pretty good share as a second.
Please explain this passage.

***

Volume I, Chapter VII

46. One thing that isn't clear to me is that while we understand that Mr Martin is in fact a desirable match for Harriet in many ways, including their social positions, isn't Mr Elton also suited socially, or is he actually above her station? These distinctions are sometimes very tricky for me to figure out.

Every single other excerpt I noted on that chapter is accompanied by the word B*TCH and the more violent F*CKING MANIPULATIVE B*TCH!, in ALL CAPS. I was in such a rage I was shaking while reading this chapter.

Not only is Emma a complete hypocrite when she says "You confined to the society of the illiterate and vulgar all your life!", when in fact she knows full well Mr Martin's letter was a very good one, which showed delicacy of feeling and expression, it just drives me crazy that Emma claims all along she doesn't want to interfere, when in fact she's meddling to the point of using subtle threats to convince Harriet not to accept Mr Martin's marriage proposal ("It would have grieved me to lose your acquaintance, which must have been the consequence of your marrying Mr Martin") and then basically dictates Harriet's reply to him ("though Emma continued to protest against any assistance being wanted, it was in fact given in the formation of every sentence")

At this point, I'd like to catch her by the neck and throttle Emma slowly and painfully. Not that I'm letting this fictional character get to me or anything! :-)

>121 rkchr:

Absolutely---it was the only thing. Women (in most instances) were completely financially dependent upon others: they were expected to take themselves off their parents' hands - or their brothers', since brothers would "inherit" this responsibility - by marrying well. Being a governess or a companion were the only other options, which were very often poorly paid positions and gave no guarantee of long-term financial security. It also meant a significant and usually permanent step down in social class. An appropriate marriage was the only way that a woman could secure her future and save herself from dependence and, often, a very difficult middle- and old age. (Miss Bates is an example of this.)

Emma is in an unusual situation in that she has a fortune of her own, through her mother. This is why she can speak so casually of not marrying at all, whereas for most young women it was the only thing they were taught to think of. It also underscores the grim financial reality that most women faced.

This was a situation that didn't change until well into the 19th century, when there was greater agitation for women's rights and women working carried less of a stigma (although there was a LOT of social resistance to this).

I'm definitely taking a break from Emma this evening! Just saying.

>122 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter VI

43. It's trimming on a hat, often a bow or a feather. It's another hint that Emma is better at drawing objects than people, presumably because she's not tempted to "improve" them.

44. A pet is a mild tantrum. It's derived from "petulant"---nothing's really wrong, you're just in a mood where you might do something like throwing a book against a wall. :)

45. Yes, Mr Elton: it is important that we recognise Mr Elton's standing in the community---we are tipped off by the fact that early on, he is referred to as "quite the gentleman"---which is another way of saying he is NOT quite a gentleman.

Mr Elton reveals his underbreeding by (among other things) "making a parade of his emotions"---showing his feelings too much, in other words, in a way that suggests he's playacting to some degree. His "sighing" and "languishing" falls into this category: he's making sure that the ladies see it.

That he "studies for compliments" is even more of a condemnation: it means he pre-prepares pretty speeches, which is another thing a gentleman shouldn't so. (And please note: in Pride And Prejudice, the dreadful Mr Collins is another person who "studies for compliments", thinking in advance of things he can say to please Lady Catherine.)

"More than I could endure as a principal" is Emma saying she couldn't stand to be courted in that way by a man; "I come in for a pretty good share as a second" means Mr Elton pays her quite enough compliments even when his main courtship is directed at Harriet.

These passages are important for showing that Emma can be a perfectly shrewd judge of character when neither her feelings nor her imagination get in the way.

Volume I, Chapter VII

46. Absolutely he is: even if he is not as far up the social ladder as Mr Knightley or Mr Woodhouse, he is a long way above the illegitimate daughter of no-one knows who. Emma is simultaneously showing her contempt for Mr Elton, and the degree to which she has let her imagination run away with her about Harriet, in trying to make a match of this kind. Such marriages did occasionally occur, but they would have been condemned by general society.

***

:D

I have no desire to argue with you here, I'll simply say that we are supposed to be shocked and angered by Emma's behaviour, and to see how many different kinds of wrong it is.

Chapter VI

Her many beginnings were displayed. Miniatures, half-lengths, whole-lengths, pencil, crayon, and water-colours had been all tried in turn. She had always wanted to do every thing, and had made more progress both in drawing and music than many might have done with so little labour as she would ever submit to. She played and sang;---and drew in almost every style; but steadiness had always been wanting; and in nothing had she approached the degree of excellence which she would have been glad to command, and ought not to have failed of. She was not much deceived as to her own skill either as an artist or a musician, but she was not unwilling to have others deceived, or sorry to know her reputation for accomplishment often higher than it deserved.

This is another interesting passage, showing that Emma's situation has allowed her to slack off in acquiring the "accomplishments" that young ladies were supposed to acquire in order to be good marriage material. There has been nothing to compel her to strive for excellence. There is a deeper criticism here, though, in that reference to "a want of steadiness", which indicates that she is falling short of the duties of her position, even as she exercises all its privileges.

The other interesting point is that in this respect, Emma is perfectly well aware of her own shortcomings, even if she won't admit them to others.

But this last point is counterbalanced by the praises of her work from not only Mr Elton, but Mr Woodhouse and Mrs Weston---you realise again how Emma got into this mess. (And consider this in light of all the parents today who go berserk if their kid fails a test at school or gets a lower grade than expected: it's not something that's gone away.)

But then, of course, Mr Knightley chips in:

     "You have made her too tall, Emma," said Mr Knightley.
    Emma knew that she had, but would not own it...

Yes, chapter VI was interesting to me as a practicing artist. At this point, it's fair to say that I hate Emma's guts. And Harriet is just a fool.

eta: I believe my reaction wasn't quite as virulent the first time I read this novel.

Chapter VII

It is also important that we consider in detail the passage that Ilana has already highlighted, involving Robert Martin's letter:

Emma was not sorry to be pressed. She read, and was surprised. The style of the letter was much above her expectation. There were not merely no grammatical errors, but as a composition it would not have disgraced a gentleman; the language, though plain, was strong and unaffected, and the sentiments it conveyed very much to the credit of the writer. It was short, but expressed good sense, warm attachment, liberality, propriety, even delicacy of feeling.

There's no question that a sharp contrast is intended here between Robert Martin and the "sighing, languishing, complimenting" Mr Elton. Jane Austen often uses how someone writes as a guide to their character, and we are expected to see that the writer of that letter is in every way superior to Harriet, and in his own way (all ways but socially, really) to Mr Elton. "Plain", "strong", "unaffected", "good sense", "delicacy"--- These are very strong words of praise for Austen, illustrating her idea of what a man should be, whether he is a gentleman or not. (Many of these words are associated with Mr Knightley throughout the narrative, which speaks for itself.)

In short, Austen intends all of us to be just as angry and disgusted with Emma as Ilana is. :D

>127 Smiler69:

Close reading with Austen---nothing less will do! :)

And yes, of course, you understand perfectly how much work is involved in art, and how far Emma has fallen short. (Though again we must put some of the blame on Miss Taylor.)

In short, Austen intends all of us to be just as angry and disgusted with Emma as Ilana is.

At least it's not me just being in a temper!

Full disclosure time: in my early 30s I became obsessed with finding a life-partner to start a family with, and since I worked all the time, made heavy use of internet dating sites. Your could say I, like Jane Austen also put a lot of stock on how a person expresses themselves in writing, and routinely eliminated most interested parties based on their terrible, or just mediocre writing skills. Sometimes even just one sentence was enough for me to make up my mind about a person. Needless to say, I took a lot of pains with my end of the correspondence. Is it any wonder I stayed single?? :-D

>130 Smiler69: I shall join you in this temper, as this is half the reason I do not like this book. The other half of my dislike is still too spoiler-y to share.

I've never tried online dating, but I do make judgment calls about people based on their command of the written word. I'm always threatening to embarrass myself and my workplace by telling patrons to "revise and resubmit" like we're running an academic journal rather than a library reference desk (most of our questions come in via email and chat). Actually, for the really incoherent ones, we do essentially that; we call it "asking for clarification."

*Proofreads post mercilessly, because one of the corollaries to Murphy's Law is that any written critique of another's writing will contain at least one error.*

>123 lyzard: Which really highlights how irresponsibly Emma is behaving towards Harriet.

Yes! - by dissuading her from making a marriage not only suitable and secure but better than her circumstances deserve. That is anything but a trivial action.

I've read through all of this and caught up to y'all in the book. I probably won't have that many questions, because that's just not how I read, but I enjoy all the extra background.

I've read Pride and Prejudice and Northanger Abbey, and I could have sworn I read Sense and Sensibility but it's not showing up on my list. I don't dislike Austen, but I'm not a great fan either. My father loves her though, so I've tried to make an effort (I tend to prefer the Victorian classics, and feel no one rivals Elizabeth Gaskell for social humor, but I'm much more familiar with that period). Since Emma is my dad's favorite Austen, I thought I'd better participate.

I just watched the new movie adaptation of her short work Lady Susan (the movie is Love and Friendship) which was very amusing if a bit sudden and disjointed at times.

Sorry Liz. I've been on a hormonally-induced bad mood for the past couple of days, and don't feel like hanging out with Emma at all today, but I'll be back soon I promise!

>134 mabith:

Welcome! Thanks for joining us

>135 Smiler69:

No worries! Take care, and I'll blather on some more about the next few chapters; hopefully others will join in. :)

In Chapter VIII, there is a lengthy conversation between Emma and Mr Knightley, mostly concerning Harriet. Emma is at first pleased that Mr Knightley thinks Harriet improved, and that he expresses a better opinion of her than previously:

    "I cannot rate her beauty as you do," said he; "but she is a pretty little creature, and I am inclined to think very well of her disposition. Her character depends upon those she is with; but in good hands she will turn out a valuable woman."
    "I am glad you think so; and the good hands, I hope, may not be wanting."
    "Come," said he, "you are anxious for a compliment, so I will tell you that you have improved her. You have cured her of her school-girl's giggle; she really does you credit."
    "Thank you. I should be mortified indeed if I did not believe I had been of some use; but it is not every body who will bestow praise where they may. You do not often overpower me with it."

No, and perhaps with good reason! We see, however, that Emma does value Mr Knightley's good opinion.

She isn't likely to receive much more of it, however, because then we find out the reason that Mr Knightley has Harriet in his thoughts, and is striving to know her better: Robert Martin has consulted him about his intention of proposing to Harriet. The subsequent exchange reveals how far at odds Emma and Mr Knightley is on this point---and the latter's genuine anger, considering his usual calm and reserve, emphasises the seriousness of the issue:

    "You saw her answer!---you wrote her answer too. Emma, this is your doing. You persuaded her to refuse him."
    "And if I did, (which, however, I am far from allowing) I should not feel that I had done wrong. Mr. Martin is a very respectable young man, but I cannot admit him to be Harriet's equal; and am rather surprised indeed that he should have ventured to address her. By your account, he does seem to have had some scruples. It is a pity that they were ever got over."
    "Not Harriet's equal!" exclaimed Mr Knightley loudly and warmly; and with calmer asperity, added, a few moments afterwards, "No, he is not her equal indeed, for he is as much her superior in sense as in situation. Emma, your infatuation about that girl blinds you. What are Harriet Smith's claims, either of birth, nature or education, to any connexion higher than Robert Martin? She is the natural daughter of nobody knows whom, with probably no settled provision at all, and certainly no respectable relations. She is known only as parlour-boarder at a common school. She is not a sensible girl, nor a girl of any information. She has been taught nothing useful, and is too young and too simple to have acquired any thing herself. At her age she can have no experience, and with her little wit, is not very likely ever to have any that can avail her. She is pretty, and she is good tempered, and that is all. My only scruple in advising the match was on his account, as being beneath his deserts, and a bad connexion for him..."

***

"Whoever might be her parents," said Mr Knightley, "whoever may have had the charge of her, it does not appear to have been any part of their plan to introduce her into what you would call good society. After receiving a very indifferent education she is left in Mrs. Goddard's hands to shift as she can;---to move, in short, in Mrs. Goddard's line, to have Mrs. Goddard's acquaintance. Her friends evidently thought this good enough for her; and it was good enough. She desired nothing better herself. Till you chose to turn her into a friend, her mind had no distaste for her own set, nor any ambition beyond it. She was as happy as possible with the Martins in the summer. She had no sense of superiority then. If she has it now, you have given it. You have been no friend to Harriet Smith, Emma."

This ruthless summing up of Harriet also underlines what we were saying about the imperative importance of marriage for young women; particularly someone in Harriet's very uncertain position in life.

Mr Knightley finally stalks off, leaving Emma upset and uncomfortable but unrepentant---and she reflects upon their quarrel in a typically Emma-like way:

Emma remained in a state of vexation too; but there was more indistinctness in the causes of her's, than in his. She did not always feel so absolutely satisfied with herself, so entirely convinced that her opinions were right and her adversary's wrong, as Mr Knightley.

"Upon my word, Emma, to hear you abusing the reason you have, is almost enough to make me think so too. Better be without sense, than misapply it as you do," says Mr Knightley in the course of the quarrel, and he is right: one of the most exasperating things about Emma is that her moments of absolute rightness get swept away by the tide of her wrongness.

Nevertheless, a couple of points made by Emma are worth noting; showing again that she her objective opinions and judgements can be perfectly apt. In fact, I'm not sure she isn't speaking for Jane Austen with these little jabs on behalf of her sex, and assumptions made about the relative positions of men and women in regard to the marriage question. There was often a great deal of social and familial pressure put on girls to accept any "unexceptional" offer that came along, regardless of feelings, as Emma is aware of and resents:

    "Her visit to Abbey-Mill, this summer, seems to have done his business. He is desperately in love and means to marry her."
    "He is very obliging," said Emma; "but is he sure that Harriet means to marry him?"
    "Well, well, means to make her an offer then..."

***

"Oh! to be sure," cried Emma, "it is always incomprehensible to a man that a woman should ever refuse an offer of marriage. A man always imagines a woman to be ready for any body who asks her."

***

"Harriet's claims to marry well are not so contemptible as you represent them. She is not a clever girl, but she has better sense than you are aware of, and does not deserve to have her understanding spoken of so slightingly. Waiving that point, however, and supposing her to be, as you describe her, only pretty and good-natured, let me tell you, that in the degree she possesses them, they are not trivial recommendations to the world in general, for she is, in fact, a beautiful girl, and must be thought so by ninety-nine people out of an hundred; and till it appears that men are much more philosophic on the subject of beauty than they are generally supposed; till they do fall in love with well-informed minds instead of handsome faces, a girl, with such loveliness as Harriet, has a certainty of being admired and sought after..."

I've very late discovering this thread, almost too late to make a point about something I find intriguing in the early chapters of Emma. Austen begins fully in control as the narrator, as the opening line makes clear. This is Austen telling us about Emma. But then gradually, almost invisibly, it becomes Emma's story to tell. No more omniscient narrator; now we're abandoned to Emma's perspective, and have to consider her as an unreliable narrator. The only aid we receive to perceiving that and reading her accordingly was the approach Austen took initially, to warn us that Emma is not quite all that she should be and so we should not entirely trust her perception. This is key to making Emma sympathetic. Imagine if the narrator remained omniscient and we knew the inner thoughts of Jane Fairfax.

Welcome!

And not at all, this is still extremely relevant. Quite right, Austen moves subtly from describing, as an outsider, Emma's emotional framework to illustrating the workings of her mind and heart within that framework. She trusts the reader to have taken away from that first chapter or two the groundwork needed to make the rest of the journey.

Despite the angry disapproval of Mr Knightley, Chapter IX finds Emma pushing ahead with her scheme for matching Harriet and Mr Elton, which to her observation seems to be coming to fruition.

However, we immediately get an example of one of the reasons that Mr Knightley disapproves of this friendship---even more for Emma than for Harriet:

Her views of improving her little friend's mind, by a great deal of useful reading and conversation, had never yet led to more than a few first chapters, and the intention of going on to-morrow. It was much easier to chat than to study; much pleasanter to let her imagination range and work at Harriet's fortune, than to be labouring to enlarge her comprehension or exercise it on sober facts...

A practical illustration of the earlier observation (Chapter V), that:

"She {Emma} will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding."

Again, we need to understand Austen's attitude here: she has nothing against "imagination", against "fancy", but she understands that left unchecked it can be dangerous in itself, as well as interfering with the execution of duties. "Easy" and "pleasant" are warning words here.

I've just completed chapters 8-10. Here are my very few questions:

Volume I, Chapter VIII

47. Mr. Martin may be the richest of the two, but he is undoubtedly her inferior as to rank in society.—The sphere in which she moves is much above his.—It would be a degradation."
That higher sphere she mentions would be... Emma's world?

48. The course of true love never did run smooth—
A Hartfield edition of Shakespeare would have a long note on that passage."
Please explain what is meant here.

***

Volume I, Chapter IX

49. "This is an alliance which, whoever—whatever your friends may be, must be agreeable to them,
Are the 'friends' in question Harriet's parents? Who else can she be referring to?

50. I guess this chapter could be called "The Charade". Why so much fuss over a charade?

51. Mr. John Knightley's being a lawyer is very inconvenient.
Is this because as a working man, he doesn't have all his time to himself? Was being a lawyer quite gentlemanly enough? I thought gentlemen should be idle!

***

Volume I, Chapter X

52. What are pollards?

53. "I must see somebody very superior to any one I have seen yet, to be tempted; Mr. Elton, you know, (recollecting herself,) is out of the question: and I do not wish to see any such person. I would rather not be tempted. I cannot really change for the better. If I were to marry, I must expect to repent it."
"Dear me!—it is so odd to hear a woman talk so!"—
Is Harriet here expressing what the average contemporary reader would have thought? Or just one who didn't have the kinds of means available to Emma?

54. "These are the sights, Harriet, to do one good. How trifling they make every thing else appear!—I feel now as if I could think of nothing but these poor creatures all the rest of the day; and yet, who can say how soon it may all vanish from my mind?"
Is she admitting how fickle her nature is with this comment?

>142 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter VIII

47. That's a slightly ambiguous statement, because the sphere that Harriet is currently "moving in", i.e. Emma's, is not the one she really "belongs to". She has no standing on her own. Emma probably thinks that Harriet being her friend is enough to elevate her socially but that is unrealistic.

Really this is a specious line of argument on Emma's part, all drawn from her choosing to believe that Harriet is a gentleman's daughter (and when even if she is, she's still illegitimate).

48. This is Emma preening herself on a match-making ability, although she pretends to believe that "something in the air" at Hartfield plays its part: first Miss Taylor and Mr Weston, then Harriet and Mr Elton; all with no trouble at all.

So while the traditional view is that "the course of true love never did run smooth", an edition of Shakespeare that took the conditions prevailing at Hartfield into consideration would have to have a footnote pointing out that sometimes the course of true love runs perfectly smoothly.

>142 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter IX

"Friends" was an interesting term at the time: it meant, broadly, anyone who took at interest in your welfare and/or might be willing to do something for you (either socially or financially); it also meant, conversely, the people to whom an individual owed a duty.

So "your friends" would be your family and any other "connexions", who you would be expected to consider when taking a step like marriage.

Emma is saying that whoever and whatever Harriet's parents might be (in practical terms, just her father), they couldn't possibly find anything to object to in Mr Elton.

50. Because this particular charade an indirect declaration of love / proposal of marriage---at the very least, testing the waters for a proposal.

51. Mr Knightley is the eldest son, and therefore inherited Donwell Abbey and its income. John Knightley is a younger son, and therefore has to work for a living.

At this time, there were really only three professions that were considered acceptably "gentlemanly"---the church, the law, the army. (The navy was only just coming into favour, as we saw in Persuasion.) Most younger sons were expected to choose from amongst these. Or make a wealthy marriage. :)

The "inconvenience" here is just Mr Woodhouse's self-absorption again: John being a lawyer means he has to live in London, which means Isabella has to live in London, which means that Mr Woodhouse doesn't get what he wants.

>142 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter X

52. There are a couple of things that Emma could be referring to. "Pollarding" was trimming something---pruning trees, or removing the horns from an animal like a bull; it was also a term for livestock without horns. So she could mean either the district's trees, or its cattle.

53. Really, the ordinary reality for most women. Almost the first things most girls were taught was that their goal in life should be to make a marriage that would ensure (hopefully) their physical and financial security. Only girls who had no personal fortune or whose parents were unable to support them would contemplate working instead.

By spelling out the reasons why she, personally, need not marry, Emma is underscoring why other girls had to.

At Harriet's level of society marriage would be necessary for the vast majority which is why she's surprised to hear Emma speak so casually of not marrying.

54. I think Emma is just being realistic here: don't we all do that, put unpleasant things out of our minds and go back to enjoying ourselves?

>142 Smiler69: Volume I, Chapter X

52. What are pollards?

Are you speaking of this line?:

"I do not often walk this way now," said Emma, as they proceeded, "but then there will be an inducement, and I shall gradually get intimately acquainted with all the hedges, gates, pools and pollards of this part of Highbury."

As Lyzard says, it could be cattle or plants. I think the later. (I know about the plant aspect of this from researching terms from Gossip from the Forest, by Sara Maitland last year.) Here is a picture:



(From my past reading, I believe that cattle that are pollard are referred to as polled cattle.) Probably too much information.

Not at all! - these language usages are very interesting. (At least, they are to me!)

I agree, tress are more likely from the context but you can't tell for certain.

>146 Nickelini: Yes, that was exactly the line the word came from, Joyce. I think I'll choose the plant as being the more likely definition.

Well, I've read chapters 11 to 18 and finished the first volume, with very few questions, yet much enjoyment. I'd been reading a chapter here and there before and not really getting immersed in the book till now, when I can more fully appreciate Jane Austen's humour.

Here are a few questions:

Volume I, Chapter XII

55. What is an embrocation? It is mentioned as a cure for a cold.

56. Can you describe what Brunswick Square would have been like at the time? Isabella mentions it as being far superior to other parts of London and having good air.

The following made me smile and is pure Jane Austen, melding the trivial with the humorous: The gruel came and supplied a great deal to be said.

Volume I, Chapter XIV

57. "And so you do not consider this visit from your son as by any means certain. I am sorry for it. The introduction must be unpleasant, whenever it takes place; and the sooner it could be over, the better."
Why does Mrs Weston believe this will be unpleasant?

Finally, just a mention that chapter XVI, "In Which Emma Learns a Lesson" helped me get over my anger with the author for creating such a selfish girl and think more kindly on our misled heroine.

>149 Smiler69:

Volume I, Chapter XII

55. An embrocation is an ointment or lotion, something rubbed into the body. In this case it might be something like Vapor Rub, since its intention is to relieve a bad cold.

56. Brunswick Square is an interesting choice of residence of the Knightleys. At this time it was a new development on the fringe of fashionable London: it wasn't where the aristocracy lived, but it was a very good address for a working lawyer and his family. This suggests (though the point is never made explicitly) that Isabella as well as Emma had a fortune from her mother, as it is unlikely a younger son would be able to afford such an address on his own money. Brunswick Square was also quite close to the courts, so it was convenient for John's work as well as acceptably fashionable.

While it is true that Brunswick Square was far enough out of the heart of London at that time to be considered almost "in the country", Isabella's claims for its specially healthful air sound more like her father talking. :)

(There is another significance to Austen's choice of Brunswick Square, which I will come back to at the end if anyone reminds me!)

Volume I, Chapter XIV

57. Emma is seeing possible difficulties in the meeting between Frank Churchill and Mrs Weston, who might be resented as a step-mother and/or a social-climber; besides her step-son being only ten years younger than she is. This is her thinking the worst, however.

chapter XVI, "In Which Emma Learns a Lesson" helped me get over my anger with the author for creating such a selfish girl and think more kindly on our misled heroine

You getting angry is really praising the author for her skill, surely? :)

Of course, it's all about Emma learning lessons...

The chapters that conclude Volume I contain some very interesting and suggestive character detail; and because they are mostly about those sorts of details, Austen is able to exercise her subtle sense of humour, as Ilana notes.

For instance, in Chapter XII, we note Emma's tactics for making up, or at least getting past, her quarrel with Mr Knightley, meeting him in company with their youngest niece to disarm any lingering anger.

Their making-up is necessary, too, since the par of them spend the entire evening running interference between the irritating Mr Woodhouse and the easily annoyed John Knightley!

Chapter XIV, meanwhile, ramps up the anticipation for a visit from Frank Churchill, which is of particular interest to Emma:

Now, it so happened that in spite of Emma's resolution of never marrying, there was something in the name, in the idea of Mr Frank Churchill, which always interested her. She had frequently thought---especially since his father's marriage with Miss Taylor---that if she were to marry, he was the very person to suit her in age, character and condition. He seemed by this connexion between the families, quite to belong to her. She could not but suppose it to be a match that every body who knew them must think of. That Mr and Mrs Weston did think of it, she was very strongly persuaded; and though not meaning to be induced by him, or by any body else, to give up a situation which she believed more replete with good than any she could change it for, she had a great curiosity to see him, a decided intention of finding him pleasant, of being liked by him to a certain degree, and a sort of pleasure in the idea of their being coupled in their friends' imaginations...

Trying to concentrate on this, Emma is annoyed and confused by what is, surely, inexplicable behaviour on the part of Mr Elton:

Emma's project of forgetting Mr Elton for a while made her rather sorry to find, when they had all taken their places, that he was close to her. The difficulty was great of driving his strange insensibility towards Harriet, from her mind, while he not only sat at her elbow, but was continually obtruding his happy countenance on her notice, and solicitously addressing her upon every occasion. Instead of forgetting him, his behaviour was such that she could not avoid the internal suggestion of, "Can it really be as my brother imagined? can it be possible for this man to be beginning to transfer his affections from Harriet to me?---Absurd and insufferable!"---Yet he would be so anxious for her being perfectly warm, would be so interested about her father, and so delighted with Mrs Weston; and at last would begin admiring her drawings with so much zeal and so little knowledge as seemed terribly like a would-be lover, and made it some effort with her to preserve her good manners. For her own sake she could not be rude; and for Harriet's, in the hope that all would yet turn out right, she was even positively civil; but it was an effort...

All of which culminates in the horrors of Chapter XV:

    Isabella stept in after her father; John Knightley, forgetting that he did not belong to their party, stept in after his wife very naturally; so that Emma found, on being escorted and followed into the second carriage by Mr Elton, that the door was to be lawfully shut on them, and that they were to have a tete-a-tete drive. It would not have been the awkwardness of a moment, it would have been rather a pleasure, previous to the suspicions of this very day; she could have talked to him of Harriet, and the three-quarters of a mile would have seemed but one. But now, she would rather it had not happened. She believed he had been drinking too much of Mr. Weston's good wine, and felt sure that he would want to be talking nonsense.
    To restrain him as much as might be, by her own manners, she was immediately preparing to speak with exquisite calmness and gravity of the weather and the night; but scarcely had she begun, scarcely had they passed the sweep-gate and joined the other carriage, than she found her subject cut up---her hand seized---her attention demanded, and Mr Elton actually making violent love to her: availing himself of the precious opportunity, declaring sentiments which must be already well known, hoping---fearing---adoring---ready to die if she refused him; but flattering himself that his ardent attachment and unequalled love and unexampled passion could not fail of having some effect, and in short, very much resolved on being seriously accepted as soon as possible. It really was so. Without scruple---without apology---without much apparent diffidence, Mr. Elton, the lover of Harriet, was professing himself her lover...

I think we can all agree that Emma is properly punished for her sins!

Which brings us to the end of Volume I.

How is everyone going? Are there any more comments and questions about these chapters?

Only that I'm astonished at your depth of knowledge about this novel and your readiness with answers for your tutee. She tries hard to stump you, doesn't she? I'm assuming you've been teaching about Austen for a few years in RL to be able to do this?

She tries hard to stump you, doesn't she?

Never thought of it that way. :-D

I just rightly assume that Liz knows everything. This I know from experience, having had several tutorials with her!

No, no - thank you, but I'm a completely self-taught nerd! Combine a love of 19th century literature with a tendency to obsess over details and this is what you get! :D

Well I, for one, am enjoying the commentary immensely. Along with that I must say that I am appreciating Emma and Austen much more than previously.
Thank you both so much for this.

>156 lyzard: ...Which is what makes you the ideal tutor. :-)

>157 rainpebble: I owe my love of JA's work entirely to Liz. Happy if this can rub off on others too!

*tiptoes in*

(so quiet in here!)

I was going to apologize for shirking my duties, as I've had a couple of busy days with no time to lay back on the couch and take in JA's delightful prose while taking notes with assiduousness, but I see others are probably very busy too. So... thank you... I guess. :-)

Here's a neat tidbit. I don't often use the word 'assiduousness' in every day conversation, so thought I'd look up the word and hit on this nice little wikipedia definitition:

Sorry for the silence, all! - the weekend went a bit...pear-shaped. I'll get things ticking again shortly.

>157 rainpebble:, >158 Smiler69:

Thank you both very much!

>160 Smiler69:

Yes, I think a bit more assiduousness from both of us might be in order! :)

Just before we move on into Volume II, there are a couple of other things worth noting about the concluding chapters of Volume I

In Chapter XVI, in the aftermath of Mr Elton's proposal, we find Emma in a rightly chastened mood and, for once, being quite clear-sighted about herself and others, as she is whenever her "fancy" doesn't get in the way:

Emma was obliged in common honesty to stop and admit that her own behaviour to him had been so complaisant and obliging, so full of courtesy and attention, as (supposing her real motive unperceived) might warrant a man of ordinary observation and delicacy, like Mr Elton, in fancying himself a very decided favourite. If she had so misinterpreted his feelings, she had little right to wonder that he, with self-interest to blind him, should have mistaken hers...

And then there's this cool summation of Mr Elton, which soon proves scarily accurate!---

Sighs and fine words had been given in abundance; but she could hardly devise any set of expressions, or fancy any tone of voice, less allied with real love. She need not trouble herself to pity him. He only wanted to aggrandise and enrich himself; and if Miss Woodhouse of Hartfield, the heiress of thirty thousand pounds, were not quite so easily obtained as he had fancied, he would soon try for Miss Somebody else with twenty, or with ten...

For once she is stern with herself:

The first error and the worst lay at her door. It was foolish, it was wrong, to take so active a part in bringing any two people together. It was adventuring too far, assuming too much, making light of what ought to be serious, a trick of what ought to be simple. She was quite concerned and ashamed, and resolved to do such things no more...

Uh-huh? :)

In Chapter XVII, we find Emma biting the bullet and telling Harriet the truth, a duty which she doesn't shirk in spite of its difficult and humiliating nature for herself, and the pain she must necessarily inflict upon Harriet:

She went to Mrs Goddard's accordingly the very next day, to undergo the necessary penance of communication; and a severe one it was.---She had to destroy all the hopes which she had been so industriously feeding---to appear in the ungracious character of the one preferred---and acknowledge herself grossly mistaken and mis-judging in all her ideas on one subject, all her observations, all her convictions, all her prophecies for the last six weeks...

Although even as she is overtly appreciating Harriet's "simplicity" and "artlessness", we catch a glimpse of the lack of genuine respect on Emma's part that allowed her to manipulate Harriet in the first place (she's not necessarily wrong, but the unthinking unkindness here underscores Mr Knightley's point about the potential harm to both parties of this "friendship"); while potential for self-delusion still looms large:

    Her tears fell abundantly---but her grief was so truly artless, that no dignity could have made it more respectable in Emma's eyes---and she listened to her and tried to console her with all her heart and understanding---really for the time convinced that Harriet was the superior creature of the two---and that to resemble her would be more for her own welfare and happiness than all that genius or intelligence could do.
    It was rather too late in the day to set about being simple-minded and ignorant; but she left her with every previous resolution confirmed of being humble and discreet, and repressing imagination all the rest of her life...

In Chapter XVIII, Highbury is---yet again---let down by Frank Churchill.

Emma's reaction to this is typical: she feels that she is not as disappointed as she should be, given her romantic fantasising about Frank, so she pretends to be more disappointed than she is, to make up for what she perceives as a "lack" in herself. This in fact leads her to take the opposing position when discussing the matter with Mr Knightley, than she did when earlier discussing him with Mrs Weston---excusing him instead of condemning him---which gets a reaction she isn't expecting:

    "He is a person I never think of from one month's end to another," said Mr Knightley, with a degree of vexation, which made Emma immediately talk of something else, though she could not comprehend why he should be angry.
    To take a dislike to a young man, only because he appeared to be of a different disposition from himself, was unworthy the real liberality of mind which she was always used to acknowledge in him; for with all the high opinion of himself, which she had often laid to his charge, she had never before for a moment supposed it could make him unjust to the merit of another...

>161 lyzard: Owwww... I'm in bad shape today. Responsibilities: out the window. I was not, by the way, referring to you Liz when I was commenting on how quiet it is on this thread... goodness knows you do more than your share! I'm just wondering where all our other participants and various visitors are... M

I may read another chapter or two tonight, then again may not. Will start by reading the three posts above! :-)

Well, I'm here but I've read so far ahead of where the discussion is right now I don't want to post any inadvertent spoilers so I'm just lurking.

>166 rosalita: I will be around henceforward too after returning from Blighty last night. Will jump in at Volume 2 as I have pretty much got to that stage thus far.

I'm here and finding all your discussions very interesting, but I don't really have anything intelligent to add.

I feel a little more sympathy for Emma after the last couple of chapters. Despite it all she is keen to be doing the right thing, if not by Harriet then of what is expected of her.

And Mr Elton is so pompous as to deserve everything he got in my book.

I do wonder at the potential scandal of allowing Emma and Mr Elton to travel alone in a carriage. Would that have been as outrageous as I'm thinking?

Will hit the books today and will post something by tonight.

I'm following along and enjoying the comments. I don't have any thing to contribute right now.

Thanks for checking in, guys! That feeling I might be talking to myself is always a bit unnerving. :)

>167 PaulCranswick:

Welcome, Paul!

>168 eclecticdodo:

No, not for such a short journey (though I'm sure it felt long to both of them!), and among friends, as it were.

You are right that generally an unrelated man and woman would not travel together in a carriage on a real journey, but something casual like this, effectively just giving Mr Elton a lift home (like sharing a cab) would not be considered unusual.

>168 eclecticdodo: Thanks for asking about the carriage ride. It did cross my mind to wonder about the propriety of it, but not long enough to think of putting it down in my notebook in writing.

Thanks for the recap on the final chapters in volume 1, Liz, I enjoyed that.

And now we introduce... Jane Fairfax.

Volume II, Chapter I

58. Mrs. and Miss Bates loved to be called on, and she knew she was considered by the very few who presumed ever to see imperfection in her, as rather negligent in that respect, and as not contributing what she ought to the stock of their scanty comforts.
'Very few', as in one person only perhaps? In the form of Mr Knightley of course—who else?! :-)

59. She had had many a hint from Mr. Knightley and some from her own heart, as to her deficiency—but none were equal to counteract the persuasion of its being very disagreeable,—a waste of time—tiresome women—and all the horror of being in danger of falling in with the second-rate and third-rate of Highbury, who were calling on them for ever, and therefore she seldom went near them.
Oh, the horror! Seriously though, is this something that would have been improper in any way?

60. Never seen the word 'buffet' spelled 'beaufet' before. Took me a moment to understand what was meant.

61. she went through it very well, with all the interest and all the commendation that could be requisite, and always putting forward to prevent Harriet's being obliged to say a word.
She may be chastised for now, but is obviously as controlling as ever!

62. "Thank you. You are so kind!" replied the happily deceived aunt, while eagerly hunting for the letter.—"Oh! here it is. I was sure it could not be far off; but I had put my huswife upon it, you see, without being aware, and so it was quite hid
A 'huswife' is... ?

63. "My mother's deafness is very trifling you see—just nothing at all. By only raising my voice, and saying any thing two or three times over, she is sure to hear; but then she is used to my voice."
Trifling indeed!

I've also wanted to mention how much I enjoy JA giving each character his or her very own distinct voice. Something I took notice of from the first time I read a book of hers.

64. "she was never away from them so much as a week, which must make it very strange to be in different kingdoms, I was going to say, but however different countries"
I think I understand what she's saying? But I'm not entirely sure? Is this just an example of her talking so fast she doesn't have time to think before she speaks? Or is there context I'm missing?

***

Chapter 2 follows in the next post.

Volume II, Chapter II

65. The plan was that she should be brought up for educating others; the very few hundred pounds which she inherited from her father making independence impossible. To provide for her otherwise was out of Colonel Campbell's power; for though his income, by pay and appointments, was handsome, his fortune was moderate and must be all his daughter's; but, by giving her an education, he hoped to be supplying the means of respectable subsistence hereafter.
All very well and good, but later in the chapter we learn that Miss Dixon is to receive twelve thousand pounds... could Col Campbell not have reduced that amount by a couple of thousand to no great reduction to his daughter's way of life, and a huge boon to Jane's?

66. With the fortitude of a devoted novitiate, she had resolved at one-and-twenty to complete the sacrifice, and retire from all the pleasures of life, of rational intercourse, equal society, peace and hope, to penance and mortification for ever.
From what we know of an English governesses life, this doesn't seem like an exaggeration....

67. Certain it was that she was to come; and that Highbury, instead of welcoming that perfect novelty which had been so long promised it—Mr. Frank Churchill—must put up for the present with Jane Fairfax, who could bring only the freshness of a two years' absence.
No doubt at all this passage describes exclusively Emma's way of thinking!

68. Jane Fairfax was very elegant, remarkably elegant; and she had herself the highest value for elegance. Her height was pretty, just such as almost every body would think tall, and nobody could think very tall; her figure particularly graceful; her size a most becoming medium, between fat and thin.
I wish we still spoke of women's sizes with so little scrupulous regard to women's degrees of desired thinness...

69. Two passages with conclusions I found highly amusing:

Upon the whole, Emma left her with such softened, charitable feelings, as made her look around in walking home, and lament that Highbury afforded no young man worthy of giving her independence; nobody that she could wish to scheme about for her.
These were charming feelings—but not lasting.

The like reserve prevailed on other topics. She and Mr. Frank Churchill had been at Weymouth at the same time. It was known that they were a little acquainted; but not a syllable of real information could Emma procure as to what he truly was. "Was he handsome?"—"She believed he was reckoned a very fine young man." "Was he agreeable?"—"He was generally thought so." "Did he appear a sensible young man; a young man of information?"—"At a watering-place, or in a common London acquaintance, it was difficult to decide on such points. Manners were all that could be safely judged of, under a much longer knowledge than they had yet had of Mr. Churchill. She believed every body found his manners pleasing." Emma could not forgive her.

***

That's all for today! I can't promise anything, but I'll do my best to follow up tomorrow...

>172 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter I

58. Certainly Mr Knightley; probably Mrs Weston has had a few things to say too, whether or not she was ever listened to. :)

But as your next quote suggests, she probably means herself - "her own heart" - she's more aware of her own failings than she ever lets on to (or likes to hear about from) other people.

59. Not improper, just dull! :D

We've talked before about Emma's mental invention of "the Great Miss Woodhouse", by which she consoles herself by thinking how much better than other people she is. Certainly this plays a part in her avoidance of Highbury, as does a measure of genuine snobbery; but as with her failure to the Bateses, it's also about avoiding having to be polite and friendly to people she doesn't care for, which is in fact a duty required of "the Great Miss Woodhouse".

But it is important to understand here that the situation of the Bateses, who have slid a long way down the social ladder due to poverty, is something to which Emma absolutely owes the duty of attention and kindness, even if her avoidance of the Coxes and others like them, who are in comfortable circumstances, can be forgiven.

Furthermore, Emma's mental note about "being in danger of falling in with the second-rate and third-rate of Highbury" reveals that the people she looks down on are much kinder to the Bateses than she is.

60. That was the archaic spelling, "buffet" is the French spelling, where the word was originally borrowed from.

61. In that case I think it's her talking so the depressed Harriet doesn't have to (or even pay attention).

62. A cloth bag or roll for holding "female" articles like needle and thread, spare buttons, scissors, etc.

63. Not so trifling, but as always we see Miss Bates making the best of her difficulties.

I think Miss Bates is one of Austen's real triumphs: so kind, so brave, so cheerful, so infuriating! :)

64. They're in Ireland and she's in England. Ireland "became" a kingdom in 1542 when its Parliament proclaimed Henry VIII King of Ireland; this lasted until 1800 when the Acts of Union were passed, which established "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland". When Miss Bates was growing up, Ireland was regarded as a separate kingdom, which is why she was "going to say" different kingdoms.

>173 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter II

65. Not realistically, no, at a time when a young woman's marriage prospects rested heavily on what money she would bring to the marriage---and particularly considering Miss Campbell's lack of physical attractions, which might have counterbalanced a smaller fortune. His overriding duty is to his daughter. Besides, giving Jane a small amount of money wouldn't change the necessity of her working.

66. Not much of one, no.

Note the comparison to becoming a nun: at this time, no good Protestant believed that anyone ever wanted to go into a convent, but were only ever forced into it by circumstances.

67. Probably Highbury too, to an extent. In a small, isolated community like this where novelties are rare, the wholly unfamiliar Frank would be of much greater interest than the familiar Jane.

68. Yeah, good luck with that. :(

69. I'll have a bit more to say about those below...

The non-friendship between Emma and Jane is very revealing.

Jane Fairfax is, as far we know, the only person in the environs of Highbury who is an obviously suitable friend for Emma, by sex, by age, by birth---and yet Emma avoids her, even makes excuses that allow her to argue that it's Jane's "fault" that they're not friends:

She was, besides, which was the worst of all, so cold, so cautious! There was no getting at her real opinion. Wrapt up in a cloak of politeness, she seemed determined to hazard nothing. She was disgustingly, was suspiciously reserved.

The fact that being friends with Jane would require more time spent with the Bateses doesn't help, but it isn't hard to see the real reason that Emma doesn't like Jane is that Jane is better at everything than her---which Mr Knightley is tactless enough to say outright:

Mr Knightley had once told her it was because she saw in her the really accomplished young woman, which she wanted to be thought herself; and though the accusation had been eagerly refuted at the time, there were moments of self-examination in which her conscience could not quite acquit her...

Of course, it can be exasperating to have friends thrust upon you, and having Jane's praises sung all the time would be annoying even for someone without Emma's good opinion of herself; but nevertheless, it is evident that the worst part of Emma was in charge when she chose the in-every-way-inferior Harriet rather than better-than-equal Jane to be her "particular friend".

And the social situation being what it is, it is for Emma to make a move or not---Jane has no say in the nature of their interaction.

I'm going to have to check back, but what chapter did part I end at? My e-book edition just has one set of chapters going all the way through, so by that reckoning I think I'm on 18.

Volume I ends after Chapter XVIII.

I will try to remember to include both formats when posting:

Volume II, Chapter I = Chapter XIX (19)
Volume II, Chapter II = Chapter XX (20)

Wonderful round of answers, as always Liz. Idle day today, tomorrow ought to be more productive, I should hope...

Have just read chapters 3 & 4 (21 & 22) and have very few questions. Here they are:

Volume II, Chapter II (21)

70. "No, my dear," said her father instantly; "that I am sure you are not. There is nobody half so attentive and civil as you are. If any thing, you are too attentive. The muffin last night—if it had been handed round once, I think it would have been enough."
I have a feeling 'muffin' here doesn't mean what I know as a muffin. Or does it?

71. "It was short—merely to announce—but cheerful, exulting, of course."— Here was a sly glance at Emma. "He had been so fortunate as to—I forget the precise words—one has no business to remember them.
Why does he say that?

72. "No—I have never seen Mr. Elton," she replied, starting on this appeal; "is he—is he a tall man?"
Is it me or is that a strange question as the first thing one would want to find out about a stranger?

***

Volume II, Chapter III (22)

73. Of the lady, individually, Emma thought very little. She was good enough for Mr. Elton, no doubt; accomplished enough for Highbury—handsome enough—to look plain, probably, by Harriet's side. As to connexion, there Emma was perfectly easy; persuaded, that after all his own vaunted claims and disdain of Harriet, he had done nothing. On that article, truth seemed attainable. What she was, must be uncertain; but who she was, might be found out; and setting aside the 10,000 l., it did not appear that she was at all Harriet's superior. She brought no name, no blood, no alliance.
Here she goes... deluding herself again when there's not a shred of evidence so far to prove that Harriet is 'superior' in any way!

OK, I've got a couple of questions based on things you've posted earlier, Liz.

The fact that being friends with Jane would require more time spent with the Bateses doesn't help, but it isn't hard to see the real reason that Emma doesn't like Jane is that Jane is better at everything than her---which Mr Knightley is tactless enough to say outright

I definitely get this from the book, but as I read I wondered if there might be another factor. Is it possible that Emma also feels somewhat guilty because she — the decidedly less talented, less industrious, less accomplished of the two — is the one who through the accident of her birth will never have to work a day in her life. While she (and we) are constantly reminded that "poor Jane" even with all her many excellent qualities, will by the accident of her birth, be forced to work for a living unless she is able to make a good marriage.

The other question relates to the Bateses. Austen shows and tells us how abominably poor they are, and how generous their friends and neighbors are about gifting them with food. Could they in fact have survived without that generosity? What exactly would expenses have been for people in their situation? Was their housing paid for, or would they have a monthly rent/least/mortgage payment? Would they have other fixed expenses?

>180 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter III (Chapter XXI / 21) (Psst: I think your chapter numbers are one out?)

70. English muffins---the little yeast-leavened flat buns, usually toasted and served with butter and jam or honey---also corrupted by McDonald's in their McMuffins. :) (And of course they're only called 'English' everywhere else!)

71. For two reasons: first he's repeating something from someone else's letter; Mr Cox probably had permission to show it to him, but repeating the contents to others wouldn't be correct; and second, Mr Elton seems to have given a rapturous description of his intended, in the first impulse of his feelings, and Mr Knightley knows that's the kind of thing a man might want unsaid / unwritten later. So as a gentleman he "doesn't remember".

Of course, the real point of Mr Knightley saying this to Emma is his limited knowledge of what she intended for Mr Elton: he has no idea how far things went, still less that Mr Elton proposed to Emma about a month ago! - or he wouldn't be teasing her like this.

72. Miss Bates is assuming her own interest in the matter in Jane, who is not only completely disinterested, she hasn't been listening: "No---I have never seen Mr. Elton," she replied, starting on this appeal..." 'Tall' is the best she can do on the spur of the moment.

But we mustn't leave this chapter without noting the blow in passing that Emma's discernment takes:

"Yes, he has been gone just four weeks, as you observe, Miss Woodhouse," said Miss Bates, "four weeks yesterday.---A Miss Hawkins!---Well, I had always rather fancied it would be some young lady hereabouts; not that I ever---Mrs Cole once whispered to me---but I immediately said, 'No, Mr Elton is a most worthy young man---but'--- In short, I do not think I am particularly quick at those sort of discoveries. I do not pretend to it. What is before me, I see."

Apparently everyone saw it but her! :D

>180 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter IV (Chapter XXII / 22)

Yyyyes and no: Emma has enough social savvy to know that "Miss Hawkins of Bristol", with ten thousand pounds, who brags about a brother-in-law who keeps two carriages, is almost certainly pretty much what she says---"no name, no blood, no alliance". But it's true that she knows nothing about her personality at this point, and the jibe about Harriet is more of an expression of her own discomfort and embarrassment.

>181 rosalita:

Yay, an outside question! :D

No, it wouldn't be that. At a distance of two hundred years the details of the class system and its barriers and restrictions are striking to us, but at the time they were just taken for granted. Emma would feel no guilt about her own position, or that position relative to Jane's; nor would Jane feel any resentment for that per se, although anything that smacked of patronising rather than friendship would be insulting. (And we see Jane subject to that soon enough...)

So, no, it's really the less tangible things that are creating barriers between them.

Your second question touches on something very important, so I want to give it its own post.

Could they in fact have survived without that generosity?

In understanding 19th century English literature, we need to understand the position of women of the middle-classes and up. (Working-class women had different problems, not relevant here.) At this point in history, England had been at war for about twenty years - this in addition to India being the destination of many younger sons, plus further male emigration to "the colonies" later in the centuries - the result was, there was very large surplus of women.

This both explains the obsession with marriage, and how unrealistic a goal it was for many. It wasn't until well into the second half of the century, when the property laws were revised, and opportunities for education and work opened up for women, that this changed.

A woman's position was, in the vast majority of cases, a reflection of what male relatives she had or could, through marriage, acquire. If there were no male relatives, the situation was often dire, as there was no way they could acceptably supplement their income. Whatever income they had, which might be through an annuity or a pension, that was what they had to live on. Very often it simply wasn't enough; and the reality is that throughout the century, many women died, if not outright of starvation, of deprivation: of not ever having enough to eat, or enough warm clothes, or fuel for heating. Often there was a slow wasting that left people vulnerable to illness. Remember---there was no such thing as welfare, no such thing as general charity.

We see the threat of this with the Bateses. Mr Bates was the previous minister, occupying the position now held by Mr Elton: not in the forefront of Highbury society, but respected and comfortable. But Mr Bates died, and his job, his home and his income died with him. His widow and daughter have since slid down the ladder of poverty, and now live a very precarious existence, in which they must depend upon gifts from their friends.

Without this, the short answer is, no, they probably would not have survived to this point.

We should note that although Emma is lax in her social duties to the Bateses, she is scrupulous with regard to meeting their material needs, as we see in the discussion (in Chapter III / Chapter XXI / 21) of what cut of pork to send them: she sends even more than her father suggests. She and Mr Knightley together (we hear about some of his activities later) form the safety-net that allows the Bateses to survive. This was one of the leading duties of people in their position.

We should also consider Miss Bates and her indefatigable cheerfulness in light of all this. Also the generosity that led her and her mother to take in the orphaned Jane Fairfax---and why they surrendered her to the Campbells.

>184 lyzard: Ah, that makes perfect sense. What seems awkward to us would have been seen as perfectly natural by everyone back then.

>185 lyzard: Thanks so much for this. It's a stark reminder of just how recent is the concern for having some sort of social safety net for the poor. Here in the U.S., Social Security was not created until my grandparents were well into their working lives. I think all the hand-wringers about the evils of government assistance to the poor should have to go back in time and try to serve in the 19th century when no one really gave a crap if you lived or died.

And yes, for all Miss Bates' annoying qualities — and they are legion — the fact that she and her mother could be so generous as to take in Jane when they themselves were in such dire straits is a testament to their fundamental decency. I was thinking even having her as an adult boarder for an extended period of months would have been a strain on them, and yet they were delighted to have Jane stay with them as long as she wanted. Extraordinary.

Very full couple of days haven't left me time to follow up on this thread or my reading. I'll do better tomorrow.

>181 rosalita: >182 lyzard: >183 lyzard: >184 lyzard: >185 lyzard: >186 rosalita: Well! That was a rewarding read! Thanks Liz once again for your illuminating answers, and thanks Julia for contributing with your questions to a deeper understanding of the vast differences between English social conventions in the early 19th century and that of our own confusing 21st century!

>184 lyzard: Liz, something about the attitudes to class distinctions of the period rankles; and by that I don't mean it offends my moral sensibilities, as one might surmise, but more because from my understanding of how, at the core, the emotional/psychological workings of individuals and groups haven't changed all that much over the course of the millennia. The Ten Commandments would point to that; otherwise why would they have continued to be relevant throughout the centuries and in varying iterations across so many religious systems? I don't exactly know them by heart, but I seem to recall "Thou shalt not covet" and that at least in the Catholic religion, envy is considered a mortal sin, pointing to the fact this is on of the core undesirable traits of human temperament, or to use psychological terms, of the human ego.

I understand that in English society, during the period of time we are reading about, the class system was deeply codified and engrained from infancy till death, and had been for centuries, and your answer neatly solves a question we have about how Emma and Jane might feel vis à vis each others finances and security. But it seems to me that though this is settled for the two young ladies both intellectually and logically (as it is for all their friends and acquaintances, and indeed to total strangers), on a deeper level I can't help but think that guilt, and envy and resentment have GOT to play a part in their interactions as well. I'm looking at this from a psychological/psychiatric viewpoint (just to be clear), and I deduce, with the help of Miss Austen's manner of describing their interactions, that all is not as it seems, but rather as is described, though that description uses as few words as possible to makes itself understood, as opposed to my explanations, which always use far too many (!)

>185 lyzard: >186 rosalita: Julia, I think your comment explains perfectly the contrast in positions on social or even socialist issues in the US today. Not only in the US, but all over the world, demagogues rely on the fact that a great part of the general population have little interest and curiosity about historical facts, be they recent or long-standing.

Not to go too far off the track, but I have to mention here the woman I saw in a video for the Guardian only the other day, claiming that before Obama, racism did not exist in the US (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/22/trump-ohio-campaign-chair-no-racism-before-obama). Really?!? So Martin Luther King Jr. was shot for no reason, and slavery never happened? Really astounding. I've grown up all my life in a system with strong socialist leanings, in Canada and in a Kibbutz in Israel some 40 years ago, and within a family where socialism has always been a thing to be praised and fought for—because it's the decent and just and moral thing for all in a truly civilized world; here using JA's 'indirect speech' technique, obviously! ;-) The idea that we can and should let people starve if they are in dire straits seems completely preposterous in that system.

I find it reassuring, if not sufficient, that people in positions of power and wealth had a responsibility to the poor, and that some continue to take the responsibility to heart, like the Gateses and Buffetts of this world (and all the other philanthropists who donate time and money to a lesser degree, whether they are wealthy or not). The case of the Bates' women in Emma shows the exception rather than the rule, as both ladies are well provided for by those who have the means to provide for them as they should. But then as now, we all know too many people who possess wealth are only interested in increasing that wealth (and in too many cases, evading taxes), and this is where stories about poor women in the 18th and 19th centuries by Jane Austen or Charles Dickens continue to be so relevant and important to read today, as examples of why a public system is important and ought to be well tended to.

***

I shall get off my soapbox now and tend to other things. Will come back later with at least two more chapters. :-)

I absolutely love this quote about Emma's father in Chapter V/XXIII:
"Though always objecting to every marriage that was arranged, he never suffered beforehand from the apprehension of any; it seemed as if he could not think so ill of any two persons' understanding as to suppose they meant to marry till it were proved against them."

I'm afraid I relate to that too much (and it's very amusing). I'm always surprised when anyone under 35 is getting married. My sister married her boyfriend of eight years when she was almost 25 and I legitimately thought she was joking because surely they were much too young (I'm five years *younger* than her, so it's not even a protective big-sister thing).

>188 Smiler69:

Great comments, Ilana!

With regard to the class system, while in itself it would have been taken for granted, there would certainly have been individual envy, individual resentment. We don't get inside Jane's head sufficiently to know what she thinks about her position, relative to Emma's, but we do know she deeply resents having to become a governess.

(And we should remember we are here at the beginning of a century which found the working-classes increasingly demanding increased opportunities and rights, and the development of trade unionism; so there was an increasing push-back against the class system, even if it was resisted and change was slow.)

Some of you would know that I am currently participating in a personal challenge to read the Publishers Weekly #1 American best-sellers from their inception---we are currently up to 100 years ago exactly and it is fascinating and horrifying to see exactly the same conditions, and exactly the same issues, being addressed. Many novels of this time deal very critically with the philosophy of accumulation of wealth and property for its own sake, and the increasing gap between the rich and the poor---and the fact that these books sold so well suggests that many people were worried about the direction society was taking.

And yes, in these books we also find the word "socialist" being used as a term of abuse by the wealthy. For example, in Winston Churchill's The Inside Of The Cup, a minister reassess his beliefs and starts telling the rich people of his town that their behaviour is literally anti-Christian---he is of course condemned as a socialist.

>189 mabith:

Oh, yes, that's a great line! :D

I sometimes have uncomfortable thoughts about the late Mrs Woodhouse, though...

In my head he sees himself as a merely lucky exception to the rule, and his stance being more related to marriages taking away people he'd rather have stayed. Though I do imagine that his preference would have been to have Emma and Isabella spring from his head fully formed and ready to baby him.

Ok so the day is almost over for me and bad migraine today and being too involved in the US presidential election (as I've tended to be in the last few months, even as an observer from Canada)... and haven't done my reading. I'm starting a new art project, so free time is harder to come by. Will do my best.

Will also come back to read the above comments. Off to give Charley his nighttime walk (will post a pic I took of him today later on)!

In Volume II, Chapters IV and V (XXII / XXIII / 22 / 23), we find Emma Juggling the two sets of emotions she has cultivated in Harriet:

She had talked her into love; but, alas! she was not so easily to be talked out of it. The charm of an object to occupy the many vacancies of Harriet's mind was not to be talked away...

We see again Emma's fundamental lack of respect for Harriet, even as she continues to cling to her---partly out of guilty, feeling that only Hartfield and Miss Woodhouse can compensate her for being misled and made unhappy, but still partly because she is putting her own needs first.

There is another distasteful scene involving the Martins, with the sisters putting out tentative feelers for a resumption of friendship towards Harriet, and Emma intervening---knowing that she is doing wrong, but doing it anyway:

They all seemed to remember the day, the hour, the party, the occasion---to feel the same consciousness, the same regrets---to be ready to return to the same good understanding; and they were just growing again like themselves, (Harriet, as Emma must suspect, as ready as the best of them to be cordial and happy,) when the carriage reappeared, and all was over. The style of the visit, and the shortness of it, were then felt to be decisive. Fourteen minutes to be given to those with whom she had thankfully passed six weeks not six months ago!---Emma could not but picture it all, and feel how justly they might resent, how naturally Harriet must suffer. It was a bad business. She would have given a great deal, or endured a great deal, to have had the Martins in a higher rank of life. They were so deserving, that a little higher should have been enough: but as it was, how could she have done otherwise?---Impossible!---She could not repent. They must be separated...

Volume II, Chapter V (XXIII / 23)

But Harriet's unhappiness is soon lost in the news that Frank Churchill has arrived at last. Emma is not slow in mentally appropriating him to herself, although she is certainly right that she is not the only one thinking along those lines:

...she did not think too much had been said in his praise; he was a very good looking young man; height, air, address, all were unexceptionable, and his countenance had a great deal of the spirit and liveliness of his father's; he looked quick and sensible. She felt immediately that she should like him; and there was a well-bred ease of manner, and a readiness to talk, which convinced her that he came intending to be acquainted with her, and that acquainted they soon must be...

She had no doubt of what Mr Weston was often thinking about. His quick eye she detected again and again glancing towards them with a happy expression; and even, when he might have determined not to look, she was confident that he was often listening...

But although Emma is (in spite of her rejection of marriage) willing enough to be fallen in love with, in her more serious moments her yardstick for Frank isn't his flattery of her, but his behaviour towards Mrs Weston, as we see in Chapter VI (XXIV / 24):

She was wanting to see him again, and especially to see him in company with Mrs Weston, upon his behaviour to whom her opinion of him was to depend. If he were deficient there, nothing should make amends for it. But on seeing them together, she became perfectly satisfied. It was not merely in fine words or hyperbolical compliment that he paid his duty; nothing could be more proper or pleasing than his whole manner to her---nothing could more agreeably denote his wish of considering her as a friend and securing her affection...

But although Emma continues to be pleased with Frank's flattering attentions to herself, a note of criticism creeps into her attitude towards him---for, we note, not being as much of a snob as she is!

They ought to have balls there at least every fortnight through the winter. Why had not Miss Woodhouse revived the former good old days of the room?---She who could do any thing in Highbury! The want of proper families in the place, and the conviction that none beyond the place and its immediate environs could be tempted to attend, were mentioned; but he was not satisfied. He could not be persuaded that so many good-looking houses as he saw around him, could not furnish numbers enough for such a meeting; and even when particulars were given and families described, he was still unwilling to admit that the inconvenience of such a mixture would be any thing, or that there would be the smallest difficulty in every body's returning into their proper place the next morning. He argued like a young man very much bent on dancing; and Emma was rather surprised to see the constitution of the Weston prevail so decidedly against the habits of the Churchills. He seemed to have all the life and spirit, cheerful feelings, and social inclinations of his father, and nothing of the pride or reserve of Enscombe. Of pride, indeed, there was, perhaps, scarcely enough; his indifference to a confusion of rank, bordered too much on inelegance of mind. He could be no judge, however, of the evil he was holding cheap...

But they find themselves in accord over Miss Bates, who Frank meets during a ceremonial call upon Jane Fairfax, with whom (as we have heard) he was acquainted in Weymouth:

"I saw all the three ladies; and felt very much obliged to you for your preparatory hint. If the talking aunt had taken me quite by surprise, it must have been the death of me. As it was, I was only betrayed into paying a most unreasonable visit. Ten minutes would have been all that was necessary, perhaps all that was proper; and I had told my father I should certainly be at home before him---but there was no getting away, no pause; and, to my utter astonishment, I found, when he (finding me nowhere else) joined me there at last, that I had been actually sitting with them very nearly three-quarters of an hour. The good lady had not given me the possibility of escape before."

Volume II, Chapter VII (XXV / 25) contains a fascinating illustration of the graduations of the class system, in its description of the Cole family, and their determined journey up the Highbury social ladder:

The Coles had been settled some years in Highbury, and were very good sort of people---friendly, liberal, and unpretending; but, on the other hand, they were of low origin, in trade, and only moderately genteel. On their first coming into the country, they had lived in proportion to their income, quietly, keeping little company, and that little unexpensively; but the last year or two had brought them a considerable increase of means---the house in town had yielded greater profits, and fortune in general had smiled on them. With their wealth, their views increased; their want of a larger house, their inclination for more company. They added to their house, to their number of servants, to their expenses of every sort; and by this time were, in fortune and style of living, second only to the family at Hartfield...

Uh-oh!

More to the point, this chapter contains an hilarious dissection of Emma's snobbery. Some of it is certainly genuine, but as I suggested earlier, a great deal of it is her way of compensating herself for the things that are missing from her life.

That being the case, what is Emma to do when - gasp! - the Coles have the temerity to invite their betters to a party!

The regular and best families Emma could hardly suppose they would presume to invite---neither Donwell, nor Hartfield, nor Randalls. Nothing should tempt her to go, if they did; and she regretted that her father's known habits would be giving her refusal less meaning than she could wish. The Coles were very respectable in their way, but they ought to be taught that it was not for them to arrange the terms on which the superior families would visit them. This lesson, she very much feared, they would receive only from herself; she had little hope of Mr. Knightley, none of Mr. Weston.

That last sentence is, of course, how we should be measuring Emma's behaviour.

Amusingly enough, Emma isn't pleased when she doesn't get the chance to deliver her "lesson":

But she had made up her mind how to meet this presumption so many weeks before it appeared, that when the insult came at last, it found her very differently affected. Donwell and Randalls had received their invitation, and none had come for her father and herself; and Mrs. Weston's accounting for it with "I suppose they will not take the liberty with you; they know you do not dine out," was not quite sufficient. She felt that she should like to have had the power of refusal...

Then again...if everyone else is going...and there might be dancing...

...afterwards, as the idea of the party to be assembled there, consisting precisely of those whose society was dearest to her, occurred again and again, she did not know that she might not have been tempted to accept...

...though her first remark, on reading it, was that "of course it must be declined," she so very soon proceeded to ask them what they advised her to do, that their advice for her going was most prompt and successful. She owned that, considering every thing, she was not absolutely without inclination for the party. The Coles expressed themselves so properly---there was so much real attention in the manner of it---so much consideration for her father. "They would have solicited the honour earlier, but had been waiting the arrival of a folding-screen from London, which they hoped might keep Mr. Woodhouse from any draught of air, and therefore induce him the more readily to give them the honour of his company." Upon the whole, she was very persuadable...

So much for snobbery. :)

The other funny aspect of this is the suggestion that the people of Highbury understand Emma better than she understands herself (which, granted, wouldn't be difficult!).

Oh dear, been in very poor shape with monster migraine today. I'll see what I can do. Eyes too tired for reading much. I've only just browsed over the posts I've missed and am confused... have you jumped ahead Liz? I'm really not doing well with this tutored read...

Only a bit---I've just made some general comments about the next set of chapters to keep things ticking over.

Hopefully I'll feel much better tomorrow. I was a miserable wreck pretty well all day, but at least I have my drawing to keep me in a suspended state in which I usually forget any pain I might be experiencing.

Looking forward to plunging back into Emma.

Okay, take care---I'll probably add a few more notes here.

An aside:

Over at the I Love Jane Austen group, LT member Chawton posted about Jane Austen and the slave trade, and I thought this paragraph might interest the Emma readers here:

"The other reference to the slave trade is much briefer and oblique and is in Emma. Austen implies that the horrible wife of Mr Elton, Miss Augusta Hawkins, comes from a newly wealthy family in Bristol, which was a major city and port that was heavily involved in the slave trade. As soon as we think about her family background, we know we can expect the newly married Mrs Elton to behave outside the conventions of accepted behaviour. "

Ow ow ow... hurting all over... like a full-body migraine after a night of insomnia. JA might just be what the doctor ordered...

>201 Nickelini:

Yes, that point was raised in one of John Sutherland's essays: Bristol was the centre of the British slave-trade, and Sir John Hawkins is often regarded as the first professional slave-trader: during the 1560s he was the first Englishman to make his profits out of the so-called "triangular trade" run (goods to Africa, slaves to the Caribbean, plantation yield to England).

We shouldn't read too much into this: nothing concrete is intended, it's merely an allusion that Austen's readers would probably have picked up on---and which might have warned them not to expect too much of the new Mrs Elton!

>202 Smiler69:

I've always found her good for what ails you! :)

Ouch...hope you're feeling better?

>204 lyzard: Not even a little bit Liz... Will be watching the live debate shortly, and badly needing a nap right now. I'm sure Miss Austen will forgive me for today.

I don't think watching that will do your health any good. :(

Certainly won't help your blood pressure! I hope you leave migraine land soon, Ilana. I get them too, though it's a lot more under control now.

>203 lyzard: John Sutherland rocks!

I've read chapters 5-7. Wanted to post stuff, but I'm still in really bad shape and just sitting here is uncomfortable. Will do so tomorrow.

>196 lyzard: I don't get the impression that Mr Woodhouse is at all a snob, so where does Emma get it? And I also want to add here that Mr Woodhouse is my absolute favorite character in the book. I'm listening to the Juliet Stevenson audio, and she does him perfectly!

Remembering that things were different for men, though---they were allowed to mingle more and be a bit exclusive. As far as Mr Woodhouse goes, pretty much everything in his life is arranged around his comfort and convenience, so the same situations don't arise. We do note that occasionally he urges Emma to a particular "attention" to this person or that, and conversely is aware that Person X must be grateful for attentions from Miss Woodhouse, so the same consciousness is there.

Part of it is real, part of it is vanity, but as I've suggested, I think at least some of Emma's snobbery is a put-on, her way of dealing with her isolation and loneliness---the fact that she backs down from her stance against the Coles as soon as she realises that everyone else is going to the party indicates that it's another instance of her play-acting a role rather than believing in it.

Volume II, Chapter V (I'll let you figure out the chapter numbers... I've been messing it up and it's too confusing for me in the state I'm in)

74. " He did not advance a word of praise beyond what she knew to be thoroughly deserved by Mrs. Weston"
Not sure what is meant by this. Is it that he knows how do dose his praise, unlike Mr Elton?

75. "Emma wondered whether the same suspicion of what might be expected from their knowing each other, which had taken strong possession of her mind, had ever crossed his"
"She had no doubt of what Mr. Weston was often thinking about."
Does everybody just assume they will fall and love and marry?

***

Volume II, Chapter VI

76. Emma watched and decided, that with such feelings as were now shewn, it could not be fairly supposed that he had been ever voluntarily absenting himself; that he had not been acting a part, or making a parade of insincere professions; and that Mr. Knightley certainly had not done him justice."
I guess we'll find out about that as we continue reading along...

77. but such brilliant days had long passed away, and now the highest purpose for which it was ever wanted was to accommodate a whist club established among the gentlemen and half-gentlemen of the place."
I did not think anyone could be a half-gentlemen, rather one of those black and white things with no shades in between.

78. "and even when particulars were given and families described, he was still unwilling to admit that the inconvenience of such a mixture would be any thing, or that there would be the smallest difficulty in every body's returning into their proper place the next morning."
I suppose this is what would happen in most small communities? Everybody returning to their right place?

79. "He could be no judge, however, of the evil he was holding cheap."
What does that mean?

80. I may prove myself to belong to the place, to be a true citizen of Highbury. I must buy something at Ford's. It will be taking out my freedom.—I dare say they sell gloves."
I don't understand that bit.

81. "Men's Beavers" and "York Tan"
Descriptions of styles of gloves: materials? colours? especially fashionable styles?

82. "I have known her from a child, undoubtedly; we have been children and women together; and it is natural to suppose that we should be intimate,—that we should have taken to each other whenever she visited her friends. But we never did. I hardly know how it has happened; a little, perhaps, from that wickedness on my side which was prone to take disgust towards a girl so idolized and so cried up as she always was, by her aunt and grandmother, and all their set. And then, her reserve—I never could attach myself to any one so completely reserved."

"Emma felt herself so well acquainted with him, that she could hardly believe it to be only their second meeting. "
I find it astonishing that she divulges so much to Frank Churchill. After all, they've only just met!

***

Volume II, Chapter VII

83. Nothing should tempt her to go, if they did; and she regretted that her father's known habits would be giving her refusal less meaning than she could wish.
Truly, one feels so very sorry for her.

>207 mabith: Thank you Meredith. I've been suffering from one prolonged migraine since Nov. 2013, though I have periods where the migraine activity is less and makes life easier. Lately it's been horrendously painful and making my life a misery.

Liz: I'm rather concerned about this tutorial, because I'm just in such poor shape. I'm barely able to take care of essentials these days and really struggling with any kind of intellectual exercise. Even reading is hard to do from all the pain. Writing this right now I'm feeling sick to my stomach and this is feeling more like a chore than anything else, which is unfair since I so enjoy these tutorials usually. I'm hoping I'll get better, but the last few weeks have been rather relentless, and I feel I'm letting everybody down. I know for sure I can't stick to any kind of schedule and cannot be counted on for much. What do you suggest?

>213 Smiler69:

Well, we might try to deal with this first.

Of course I understand and there's nothing for you to feel guilty about. I can carry on blathering but I don't feel that this really fulfils the purpose of these threads.

How do others feel about this? What do you think is the best way forward?

I don't suppose anyone out there would be willing to take over as tutee?

>213 Smiler69: So sorry you're having such a rough time. Thankfully my own migraines rarely last more than a day so I can't begin to imagine how you are feeling after two years. Rest up and don't feel guilty.

>214 lyzard: I'm not up to the job of being tutee, but that is what we need - someone to take over as primary and take the pressure off. There must be someone out there....

I'd recommend taking this to the main Book Talk board, with its broader readership; explain the role and solicit someone to help us out.

Poor Ilana. I'm a latecomer, and don't have a suggestion. I just caught up, and wanted to thank Ilana and Liz and Julia and everyone else for such lively and helpful discussions of the book. Emma has never been a favorite JA for me, but I now better appreciate that In short, Austen intends all of us to be just as angry and disgusted with Emma as Ilana is. :D

I'm on board, however this continues.

I'm absolutely willing to continue, it's just the pressure of feeling I need to post regularly I'm finding difficult to handle given my state these days. But if the majority of your would prefer another tutee who is more dependable, I can certainly understand.

Oh! Sorry, thought you were retiring. I'm patient, personally, so don't feel any pressure.

>219 Cecrow: Yes, I'm sorry I was so unclear, but I was in a miserable state when I posted that message. I would like to continue, it's just that as I've already amply proven, I'm not in a state to keep up a regular flow and am failing to meet my own expectations of what a 'good' tutee should do. Liz knows as a few others might, that I have a permanent migraine situation which has been going on for a several years now, but sometimes the pain is less and allows me to be more active. At the moment, I think the sudden change of season (one day it was HOT summer, the next, cool autumn with no transition) is playing havoc on me and anyone likely to suffer from headaches of any kind. I felt pressured by guilt, which is part of the reason I felt I was probably inadequate for this job and should give someone the opportunity to take over.

So as I said, if Liz and several of you would like to have someone who is more dependable, I completely understand. If, on the other hand this business of stop and go on my part doesn't bother anyone, I'll happily continue. Liz has been doing a fantastic job of filling in the blanks.

So far the pain is more manageable today. I'll try to post something later on.

>215 eclecticdodo: Thanks for understanding, Jo. Even a day-long migraine is too much migraine for anyone but those I hate virulently in this world (Donald Trump is topping that chart these days). Sorry you're a sufferer too. Mine got started three years ago when my landlords had workers drill and dig underground to put in a basement, which digging and attendant loud machinery noises lasted three weeks and obviously did quite a number on me!

I'm looking forward to my next dose of Emma today. Don't know that I like our heroine even a *little bit* more at this point, but JA's writing is always delightful.

>217 jnwelch: Hi Joe, and thanks. You've probably heard my complaints more than some over time, and I thank you for your support.

>221 Smiler69: Always, Ilana. I've no problem with stop and go.

>221 Smiler69: I'm more than happy to wait and go at your pace - don't feel any pressure. If you want to continue don't feel you're being too slow, most of us are slow too

I'm happy to go at your pace, Ilana, you always ask very good questions.

If you're okay to go on, Ilana, that's great---obviously your health comes first, though. I don't want this thread to feel like a burden, so just let us know if it's getting too difficult.

So! - to resume. :)

>212 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter V (XXIII / 23)

74. That Frank's praise of Mrs Weston is deserved by her, without his going overboard---though as Emma also notes, he can't really know her well enough yet to be speaking from personal knowledge rather than politeness.

75. Not everyone; that's just Emma. She's thinking of it, so she's hoping that he is too---because it wasn't "nice" for the young woman to take the lead in these things, or be thinking of a man more than he was thinking of her.

She's almost certainly correct that the Westons are thinking of it, whatever Frank himself might be thinking.

>213 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter VI (Chapter XXIV / 24)

76. Yes, we don't know enough about Frank yet to judge. (Not that that stops Emma!)

77. It's the men who are not (or not quite) gentlemen by birth, but who rise to a social position that gives them a foot in the door with the real thing. As I mentioned, there was a lot more class mingling done amongst men than amongst women. We see from this that in pursit of a good game of whist, the gentleman were willing to admit their social inferiors.

78. Theoretically. :)

It's the smallness of the place that makes the boundaries difficult to maintain at the best of times: there aren't enough people for too much particularity! Emma worries that once everyone has been invited to the same social event, treated more or less as equal, it won't be possible to re-establish those boundaries; while Frank is too interested in his party idea to worry about the fallout.

79. That he doesn't know Highbury well enough to understand what the consequences of his planned party are likely to be (unpleasant consequences, in Emma's estimation).

80. Becoming a citizen---buying something at Ford's will make him a "real" citizen of Highbury, not just a visitor.

Frank is joking but in keeping with the allusions to Miss Hawkins, the expression he uses could be read as a reference to slavery, though white slavery rather than black: when transported convicts finished their term of labour, they were often granted the freedom of their community.

81. Gloves made of different thin leathers: beaver is exactly what it says, beaver-skin, while York tan was sheep-skin.

82. This is another thing we need to understand about Emma: now that she has lost the companionship of Mrs Weston, she has no-one to talk to; she babies her father, and she talks at Harriet, but there's no real exchange in their conversations. This is another aspect of her having no real friends her own age. So now that she does have someone in Frank, she overdoes it and says more than she should, as she is aware after the event.

Volume II, Chapter VII (XXV / 25)

83. There's nothing more annoying than taking a stand and nobody noticing! :D

Hi friends... and I do mean friends: I feel like I've steeped in a warm bath of kindness, checking in just now. I appreciate the support and encouragement and understanding. Migraine is atrocious right now, and the only dependable relief usually comes with drawing, so off to it I go. I'll come back and read more closely when my eyes aren't shying away from reading on the computer screen. You'll all have time to digest Liz's answers above before another round of questions. :-)

Iliana, I am more than happy to go at slow pace. You are doing a great job.

So happy to have stumbled upon this thread. I am just about to start a reread of Emma myself and look forward to following the discussion. IHopefully I'll catch up before you finish it.

>228 Oregonreader: Thanks Jan, I'm glad you're enjoying the tutorial despite my snail's pace. Struggling with intense migraine pain for the last several weeks, which is making things more difficult than they need be. At least I have the privilege of using my time as I see fit and get all the rest, sleep, naps I need. There's lots of that going on, I can tell you! Today. I will read a couple more chapters and post an update.

>229 alvaret: You're very welcome to join us! As you'll have seen, this reading is going at a more than leisurely pace, so it's very likely you'll be catching up very soon. What I haven't mentioned is I always have several—not too say way too many—books and audiobooks and browsing material going at all times, and too many hobbies that pull me in different directions... all competing with my newfound love for Jane Austen. I've had and followed quite a few tutorials with Liz by now, and as you've already seen from above, she's an amazing and generous fount of knowledge which makes any book studied with her that much more fascinating. Take your time to settle in and enjoy!

As mentioned above, I'll be back later today with new comments on the book.

As promised for today:

Volume II, Chapter VIII

The Dinner Party at the Coles's

84. She meant to be very happy, in spite of the scene being laid at Mr. Cole's; and without being able to forget that among the failings of Mr. Elton, even in the days of his favour, none had disturbed her more than his propensity to dine with Mr. Cole.
Why would this bother her at all??

85. for Mr. Knightley keeping no horses, having little spare money and a great deal of health, activity, and independence, was too apt, in Emma's opinion, to get about as he could, and not use his carriage so often as became the owner of Donwell Abbey.
Either my memory fails me or this is the first comment about Mr Knightley being in a tight financial situation...

86. "Yes I should, I am sure I should. There is always a look of consciousness or bustle when people come in a way which they know to be beneath them. You think you carry it off very well, I dare say, but with you it is a sort of bravado, an air of affected unconcern; I always observe it whenever I meet you under those circumstances. Now you have nothing to try for. You are not afraid of being supposed ashamed. You are not striving to look taller than any body else. Now I shall really be very happy to walk into the same room with you."
"Nonsensical girl!" was his reply, but not at all in anger.
Two things about this passage:
a) it really shows off the extent of Emma's snobbery
b) for the first time with this passage, I smiled and though of her as Mr Knightley might at that moment, as someone who likes her and thinks she is just young and foolish and much too entitled.

87. When the Westons arrived, the kindest looks of love, the strongest of admiration were for her, from both husband and wife; the son approached her with a cheerful eagerness which marked her as his peculiar object, and at dinner she found him seated by her—and, as she firmly believed, not without some dexterity on his side.
I'm assuming that by 'object' here, JA means it in the philosophical sense, as 'a thing external to the thinking mind' as opposed to 'a material thing'? I'm not entirely sure about this as feminism was in its infancy then... if that, even.

88. That very dear part of Emma, her fancy, received an amusing supply.
A tiny sentence that I found to be key; the first time JA actually spells this out instead of letting us infer how fanciful Emma is.

89. Jane Fairfax did look and move superior; but Emma suspected she might have been glad to change feelings with Harriet, very glad to have purchased the mortification of having loved—yes, of having loved even Mr. Elton in vain—by the surrender of all the dangerous pleasure of knowing herself beloved by the husband of her friend.
I must say I found this statement quite shocking; to be talking of an inappropriate and sinful kind of love in their kind of moral environment! I know this was written before the Victorian period, but surely a passage like this would have shocked her contemporary readers too?

90. "Yes, I would. I could not bear to have Henry supplanted.—Mr. Knightley marry!—No, I have never had such an idea, and I cannot adopt it now. And Jane Fairfax, too, of all women!"
"Nay, she has always been a first favourite with him, as you very well know."
"But the imprudence of such a match!"
What would be imprudent about it, other than Emma objecting to it?

91. Mrs. Weston, capital in her country-dances, was seated, and beginning an irresistible waltz
Just find it interesting that the waltz would have been considered as a country-dance at that time in England. Perhaps I'm not exactly clear on what a 'country-dance' was? and I believe the waltz was a rather recent thing... I think we've touched on this before, but please refresh my memory?

***

That is all for today. This was a rather longer chapter than the others. Fascinating!

Good work! :)

Yes, you do get these "island" chapters in Austen where a lot of details suddenly pile up. Sometimes she uses these details to distract you from other details...

Volume II, Chapter VIII (XXVI / 26)

84. Because it shows him lacking in a "proper" sense of class distinction, a sign of under-breeding (underlining that he isn't "truly" a gentleman).

85. No, he isn't in a tight financial situation, rather what that passage suggests is that Mr Knightley reinvests his money in his estate, improving his land and conditions for his tenants, rather than using his property merely as a source of income for himself. His practice of doing this means he hasn't a lot of spare cash to spend on luxuries---or on the things that a man in his position would usually display as status symbols, like (as Emma suggests) always using a carriage instead of walking.

86. I think (b) is closer to the mark. I would also suggest that (c) it indicates a long history of mutual teasing between them, and (d) Emma is sensitive to things touching on Mr Knightley's dignity, which becomes more of an issue when Mrs Elton arrives.

87. Nothing to worry about there! "Object" in the sense of "goal" or "focus", not, well, object. :)

88. We should all know that by now!

89. No, not at all: things were very different in this generation, more honest, with less of the hypocrisy and faux-innocence that marked the Victorians. People didn't feel obliged to behave as if they didn't see things or know things, even young women. Don't forget, this story starts with Emma asking Harriet who her parents are! It wasn't that such things weren't considered wrong at the time (Austen's morality is very strict), it just wasn't necessary to pretend that they didn't happen.

90. Hard to say. Having Miss Bates as an aunt-in-law?? :D

It would automatically be considered "imprudent" because she's penniless (this is the point that Mrs Weston immediately raises), and as per 89. no-one would pretend that money wasn't an important aspect of a "good" marriage, but if that doesn't bother Mr Knightley, it shouldn't bother anyone else...

91. No, it means that they already know she's good at country-dances, now they find out she's good at waltzes too.

The waltz was popular in Europe before it was accepted in England, which didn't happen until after Waterloo when Europe was open to travellers again, and it took some time to move from London to the country, but by 1816 it was accepted by most people.

86. I was really amused by this portrait of Mr Knightley and choose to credit Emma's power of observation here. I believe myself to be sometimes guilty of this type of bustle myself (eg. after a hike when I end up walking around in a civilized area in my field clothes, underdressed but kind of proud of it...)

>232 lyzard: Wonderful! Also wonderful, is how bad my memory is; even though I read (listened to, actually) this novel almost exactly five years ago (in November—I like keeping track of such things!) and the incident of the piano has stood out in my mind then, I can't for the life of me remember how the mystery unravels. At this point, I'm suspecting Frank Churchill and that he is being less than candid with her during the dinner at the Coles's, where he 'affects' to adopt Emma's suspicions. The speculation alone is great fun!

>233 alvaret: You're making me yearn to get back to hiking again! I fear my own field clothes are all probably too small for me by now... and for the life of me, I can't get myself to get up in the very early morning hours, which is when I get my best sleep!

Back to Emma, please DO feel free to ask any questions of your own on any of the sections we've already covered!

>235 Smiler69: I tend to get too caught up with the story to have many questions, but I will see if I can read more slowly from here. Anyway I really appreciate how this thread explains things I hadn't even realised that I didn't fully understand. You two do a great job with questions and answers!

Migraine pain has been relentless this week, even waking me up several times each night from screaming pain. Needless to say, I'm pretty well totally out of it. Will post something over the weekend as I'm eager for my next rendez-vous with Miss Austen.

Sending positive thoughts for your feeling better, Ilana. Screaming pain - arggh. Not fair.

>238 jnwelch: Thanks Joe... I've been online doing silly no-brainer stuff, can't seem to concentrate on any one thing lately, as having to smoke a lot of medical marijuana to make my head bearable to live with. If I had the option of screwing it off sometimes, I might manage to function better! I'm really sorry everyone for stalling so much. I'd forgotten how bad the autumn months can be with migraine activity, and have to admit repeatedly seeing an abuser and bully in the news and all over the internet these days isn't doing much for my psyche... at least I get to vent about it in appropriate channels, but I'll be back with updates on the book soon, I promise! Jane Austen is needed for her therapeutic benefits at this point!

I've read chapters 9 through 11 tonight, and have just two tiny questions...

Volume II, Chapter VIIII

92. The duty of woman by woman" is mentioned in this chapter, as Emma is not sure she should have shared her suspicions about the provenance of the piano with Frank.
What would these duties be?

***

Volume II, Chapter X

Preparing for Another Dance

93. Contingencies and conveniencies
Are 'conveniencies' anything other than things that are convenient?

I had some questions too on chapter 9, and I guess I was hungry when I read it because they areall regarding the apples...
Miss Bates got the baked apples from Mrs Wallis, which I guess means that they don't have any oven of their own? Is this a significant poverty sign or something more common?
And if you happen to know it I also wondered about baking the apples two (or three) times? How and why?

>240 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter IX (XXVII / 27)

92. We've talked before in our Austen threads about how desperately important a woman's reputation was at this time---that anything negative could hurt not just her, but her family as well, and damage her chances of marrying. Of course, the negative thing didn't have to be true; gossip would be sufficient (though the gossipers would no doubt argue that the woman was at fault for doing something that gave rise to gossip).

So in this atmosphere there was a (largely unspoken) acceptance of the need for "sisterhood", if you like: a feeling that women had a particular duty to be careful of the reputation of other women, and not to do or say anything that might unfairly impact another woman.

This is what Emma means by "the duty of woman by woman", and it's also what she's guilty of violating. It's one thing for her to have lurid suspicions about Jane Fairfax and Mr Dixon, it's another for her to voice those suspicions to another person---and that person both a comparative stranger and a man.

As we discussed in >226 lyzard:, between the flirtatious nature of her interaction with Frank Churchill and her pleasure in really having someone to talk to, Emma has said a lot more than she should have done.

Volume II, Chapter X (XXVIII / 28)

93. Not in this case. Frank is using "contingencies and conveniences" simply as a catch-all phrase, meaning nothing specific.

>241 alvaret:

More questions - excellent! :)

Volume II, Chapter IX (XXVII / 27)

At this time, people living in "rooms" rather than in a house would often not have a kitchen or at least not a proper baking oven (at the time these were solid stone and took up a lot of room). People would either order all their meals in, from a local public house and/or bakery, or they would make their dishes themselves and send them to the local bakery to be cooked or heated up. We can tell from the context that Mrs Wallis is the local baker:

"I have heard some people say that Mrs Wallis can be uncivil and give a very rude answer, but we have never known any thing but the greatest attention from them. And it cannot be for the value of our custom now, for what is our consumption of bread, you know?"

At a bakery, apples would be an add-on to the main business, and put into the oven either as it was heating up to do something else or cooling down from a job, and so would often go through more than one baking session before they were properly cooked.

However, in the 19th century vegetables and fruit were often cooked almost to death (they weren't considered "cooked" or safe to eat until they were mushy) and this is probably why Mr Woodhouse thinks that baked apples need to be cooked three times to be "wholesome".

Volume II, Chapter IX (XXVII / 27)

That's our girl:

Emma did not repent her condescension in going to the Coles. The visit afforded her many pleasant recollections the next day; and all that she might be supposed to have lost on the side of dignified seclusion, must be amply repaid in the splendour of popularity. She must have delighted the Coles---worthy people, who deserved to be made happy!

On the other hand, we can hardly disagree with her mental reflection on Miss Bates' conversation:

     "What was I talking of?" said she, beginning again when they were all in the street.
    Emma wondered on what, of all the medley, she would fix...

More seriously, this business with the apples shows Mr Knightley fulfilling his duty of care towards the Bateses, as we saw earlier with Emma and the cut of pork.

We also get some interesting details about the Donwell Abbey estate and the derivation of some of Mr Knightley's income from his production of apples.

The other thing that always catches my eye is the use (others do it too, but of course Miss Bates says it several times in a row) of the full name, "William Larkin". This is the overseer of Mr Knightley's farms and orchards, who manages the harvest and sale of his produce. He is a working man, so he doesn't rate "Mr Larkins"; but he is an employee rather than a servant (and an important one), so he isn't called just "Larkins", either. These are the sort of subtle distinctions that were made at the time.

Volume II, Chapter X (XXVIII / 28)

The bit about this chapter that always cracks me up is Mr Knightley's management of Miss Bates:

So began Miss Bates; and Mr Knightley seemed determined to be heard in his turn, for most resolutely and commandingly did he say... And Miss Bates was obliged to give a direct answer before he would hear her in any thing else.

And of course, this:

    "Oh! Mr Knightley, what a delightful party last night; how extremely pleasant.---Did you ever see such dancing?---Was not it delightful?---Miss Woodhouse and Mr Frank Churchill; I never saw any thing equal to it."
    "Oh! very delightful indeed; I can say nothing less, for I suppose Miss Woodhouse and Mr Frank Churchill are hearing every thing that passes. And (raising his voice still more) I do not see why Miss Fairfax should not be mentioned too. I think Miss Fairfax dances very well; and Mrs Weston is the very best country-dance player, without exception, in England. Now, if your friends have any gratitude, they will say something pretty loud about you and me in return..."

:D

>244 lyzard: "Now, if your friends have any gratitude, they will say something pretty loud about you and me in return..."

LOL!

>243 lyzard: I should have assumed you would know ;) That's very interesting, thank you!

So now Frank Churchill is being even more infuriating than Emma! or is that just me?

>247 eclecticdodo: Definitely not just you!

I'll try to post an update soon. Today I'm having the monster migraine of monster migraines, after a weeklong monster migraine. So... apologies for being useless as a tutee or anything else for that matter.

>249 Smiler69: I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you'll feel better soon!

I have a question about two phrases that are from much earlier parts in the novel, but have me puzzled, and are in italics below:

Chapter 4: Talking about Harriet, the narrator says: "...strength of understanding must not be expected."

and much later, at the end of Chapter 20, when we are first introduced to Jane Fairfax, Emma asks Jane to describe Frank Churchill: "Did he appear a sensible young man; a young man of information?

What do these two phrases mean, exactly? My first guess is that they both mean someone who is quick, bright, intelligent; but I'm not sure, or if there is a subtle difference between the two.

>245 jnwelch:

Mr Knightley cracks me up!

>246 alvaret:

Welcome. :)

>247 eclecticdodo:, >248 rosalita:

They're very well matched!

>249 Smiler69:

Whenever you can, Ilana.

>251 kac522:

There is a difference. "Strength of understanding" is intelligence, basically; whereas "information" means, not exactly education (although he would expected to know the things that a young man's education consisted of at this time, like Latin and Greek), but more like a good knowledge of the world, and more particularly the capacity to hold a conversation on a variety of topics. The ability to talk well and entertainingly (and sensibly) was very prized.

>252 lyzard: Ah! Thank you!

I just got the MacMillan "Collector's Library" edition--it's gorgeous:



I may have to collect the whole set. What a burden!

It's been much too long. I'm in constant pain. Impossible to concentrate on anything. I try to keep up my spirits, but it's hard getting anything done, and reading is taking a backseat these days.

I am so sorry for your suffering. I've never had a migraine but I can imagine how it shuts everything down. I hope this passes soon.

>256 Oregonreader: Thanks Jan, it's been one heck of a ride these past few weeks.

>255 Smiler69: I'm sorry to hear that, take care!
Emma seems to be used to waiting, I'm sure she'll still be there when you feel better.

>255 Smiler69:

Would you prefer to formally suspend this project for a while? I don't want it to be a burden to you, something you're forcing yourself to do rather than something you enjoy and look forward to.

It's a shame but there's no arguing with ill health; better that you concentrate on looking after yourself without worrying about side-issues like this. We can pick it up again whenever you're feeling up for it.

>258 alvaret: Thank you for that.

>259 lyzard: Liz, I'm in less pain today and thought of doing a little reading session when I come back from my walk with Charley. I know this is far from ideal tutoring conditions, but I've still been getting a lot out of it. If you're ok with continuing in stops and gos, then I'll continue as best I can. Could happen that I manage to get through more chapters if head clears a little... otherwise, it's nice to know there's some kind of project out there for me. I'll try to do better... but if you're finding this too onerous and it's impinging on other group or personal projects, I will understand your desire to reschedule.

No, I'm fine---happy to go on or stop for a while, whichever you prefer. I just thought it might be easier for you to take a full break for a while.

>261 lyzard: Nothing is easy really these days... but I keep on keeping on. About to have a reading session now... the first of any books (save for audiobooks) in a while... will post comments soon.

Just finished reading chapters 12 through 14. Have a few comments

Volume II, Chapter XII

94. As to his going, it was inevitable. He must be gone within a few hours, though without feeling any real alarm for his aunt, to lessen his repugnance. He knew her illnesses; they never occurred but for her own convenience.

One of those insufferable invalids! I remember being especially astonished at the selfishness of the Frederick Fairlie character in Wilkie Collins's The Woman in White. I'm sure there were other memorable invalids in other JA novels as well, but can't recall right now...

95. I found the following passage rather amusing, and Emma's expectation of what being in love must feel like rather alarming!

What strength, or what constancy of affection he might be subject to, was another point; but at present she could not doubt his having a decidedly warm admiration, a conscious preference of herself; and this persuasion, joined to all the rest, made her think that she must be a little in love with him, in spite of every previous determination against it.
“I certainly must,” said she. “This sensation of listlessness, weariness, stupidity, this disinclination to sit down and employ myself, this feeling of every thing’s being dull and insipid about the house!— I must be in love; I should be the oddest creature in the world if I were not—for a few weeks at least.

***

Volume II, Chapter XIII

95. Harriet undoubtedly was greatly his inferior in understanding; but he had been very much struck with the loveliness of her face and the warm simplicity of her manner; and all the probabilities of circumstance and connexion were in her favour.
Not sure what is meant here. Is Emma once again assuming Harriet has a rich and influential father, or is JA saying she would benefit from the connection to Frank?

***

Volume II, Chapter XIV

Emma meets the new Mrs Elton

96. Why so much harping on Maple Grove?

97. “When you have seen more of this country, I am afraid you will think you have overrated Hartfield. Surry is full of beauties.”
“Oh! yes, I am quite aware of that. It is the garden of England, you know. Surry is the garden of England.”
“Yes; but we must not rest our claims on that distinction. Many counties, I believe, are called the garden of England, as well as Surry.”
“No, I fancy not,” replied Mrs. Elton, with a most satisfied smile. “I never heard any county but Surry called so.”
Emma was silenced.
So what's your verdict on the matter? Liz, or anyone who knows England well for that matter...

98. Not a question, just noting that Mrs Elton manages to insert the words 'barouche-landau' four times in two paragraphs (if my calculation is correct). You'd think she had just learned a new name for a four-wheeled vehicle...

99. “We have been calling at Randalls,” said she, “and found them both at home; and very pleasant people they seem to be. I like them extremely. Mr. Weston seems an excellent creature—quite a first-rate favourite with me already, I assure you. And she appears so truly good—there is something so motherly and kind-hearted about her, that it wins upon one directly. She was your governess, I think?”
Emma was almost too much astonished to answer; but Mrs. Elton hardly waited for the affirmative before she went on.
“Having understood as much, I was rather astonished to find her so very lady-like! But she is really quite the gentlewoman.”
Can you clarify why Emma is so astonished at that point in the conversation when Mrs Elton hasn't yet made that comment about Mrs Weston being 'quite the gentlewoman'? Was she being too personal?

>263 Smiler69:

Volume II, Chapter XII (XXX / 30)

94. It's interesting to me that we get this constant (and no doubt justified) criticism of Mrs Churchill, while everyone falls over themselves to pander to Mr Woodhouse. So it's not the hypochondria, it's how the hypochondria expresses itself? :)

19th century literature is full of people making a hobby out of their health; it probably reflects a lack of acceptable pastimes for people of the upper classes.

95. I think there's a very simple conclusion we can draw from Emma's peculiar views on being in love!

(Not that she would be the first person to mistake "being bored" for "missing someone".)

{NB: we have two 95.-s in your notes; I've continued the numbering.}

Volume II, Chapter XIII (XXXI / 31)

96. Rather, that Harriet's "connexion" with Emma means that Frank will likely see her too every time he calls on Emma---that as Emma discourages him, he may turn to the next best thing. (Her including Frank in her fantasies like this is a good indication there's no serious feeling at all on her part.)

Volume II, Chapter XIV (XXXII / 32)

97. Because it's all she has. :)

In 74. you took exception to Emma's preliminary judgement of the new Mrs Elton, "She brought no name, no blood, no alliance", but Mrs Elton's behaviour here shows that Emma had correctly read the signs about her. Her constant bragging about her wealthy brother-in-law and, as you pick up, her harping on his owning two carriages, including a barouche-landau, marks her as rather underbred, as well as giving away the lower social level she's used to moving at.

98. Well, there's two things here: I'm sure Emma is right about "the garden of England" being fairly widely applied (doesn't Kent usually get called that, for one?); but the main point is Mrs Elton's "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, which is both impolite in general and particularly in conversation with someone you've just met. It's another red flag.

99. This is like someone bragging about owning a sports car. :)

The barouche was a vehicle intended for show, not practical travel. It was a nice vehicle for seeing the countryside, since it held its occupants up high and the view was unobstructed, but for many people it was about being seen rather than seeing.

A landau, meanwhile, was similar to a barouche - both were designed to carry four to six people, and to be driven by a coachman - but a barouche had a folding roof that would only cover two passengers while a landau's folding roof could be closed.

And a barouche-landau combined the various features of the other two, and was considered the most prestigious of the three.

(We should note that a feature of all three is the absence of a platform on the back for a footman or other servant, which meant it was easier to have a private conversation in this sort of carriage than in most others!)

100. It's very important to keep in mind that at this time almost all governesses were ladies fallen on hard times---distressed gentlewomen, to use the term of the time.

"I was rather astonished to find her so very lady-like! But she is really quite the gentlewoman.”

Mrs Weston is not "lady-like" or "quite the gentlewoman"---she is a lady; she is a gentlewoman.

So to Emma, Mrs Elton is flat-out insulting Mrs Weston by suggesting she isn't.

Of course, the point is that Mrs Elton isn't enough of a lady herself to recognise the real thing when she sees it.

(We should also keep in mind that Mrs Elton is applying to Mrs Weston exactly the same qualifier that Emma earlier applied to Mr Elton---i.e. that he was "quite the gentleman". The difference being that Emma was right!)

>264 lyzard: 100 Isn't it insulting to Emma too to suggest that she might have had a governess who was not a gentlewoman? If most governesses were gentlewoman I guess someone in Emma's position would definitely have one? Although I do believe Emma would care more about the insult to Mrs Weston. And I also wonder why Emma was astonished already before that last addition of "quite the gentlewoman"? (I believe that was actually the original question? >263 Smiler69: )

>265 alvaret:

Yes, you're quite right---and particularly when Miss Taylor had so much to do with raising Isabella and Emma, not just teaching them; it's less insulting than just stupid (or rather, ignorant).

It's pretty clear that Mrs Elton thinks of governesses as servants, which may reflect what she has been accustomed to in her circle (or perhaps how the governesses were treated in her circle).

Emma's "astonishment" starts, I guess, with the condescending tone of Mrs Elton's remarks about the Westons, who are certainly both her superiors: she shouldn't be approving them; if anything, they should be approving her (or not). But them Emma, and we, get diverted by the insulting implications of her remarks about Mrs Weston.

This passage is very important in light of Mrs Elton's later determination to get Jane Fairfax a position amongst her own friends---we're left to imagine what she'd be facing.

All this brings into focus a very important aspect of this novel, namely, the relationship between Emma and Mrs Elton.

It has been frequently argued, and I think with some justice, that Mrs Elton has all of Emma's faults without any of her good points---and that the reason she drives Emma so crazy is that, on some level, Emma recognises this.

Certainly Mrs Elton is vain and snobbish and domineering; she assumes herself "first" and most important in any social gathering; and her later patronising of Jane Fairfax echoes Emma's treatment of Harriet.

So she's almost like a carnival mirror for Emma, a reflection that emphasises all of the worst aspects of her own character.

And of course in terms of the novel it shows us that, with all her faults, there's lots of room for Emma to be even worse! :D

>266 lyzard: This passage is very important in light of Mrs Elton's later determination to get Jane Fairfax a position amongst her own friends---we're left to imagine what she'd be facing.

Ah, I had not quite made that connection completely, although I had thought about how horrid any friend of Mrs. Elton's was likely to be. But of course what you point out is Austen's implication, isn't it? While Mrs. Elton is making such a show of getting Jane a prestigious posting (purely to make herself look good), in reality Jane is not likely to be treated appropriately by anyone Mrs. Elton is friends with.

>264 lyzard: 'doesn't Kent usually get called that, for one?'

Yes, I'd be more likely to think of Kent as the garden of England than Surrey.

>267 lyzard: It has been frequently argued, and I think with some justice, that Mrs Elton has all of Emma's faults without any of her good points---and that the reason she drives Emma so crazy is that, on some level, Emma recognises this.

'her later patronising of Jane Fairfax echoes Emma's treatment of Harriet.'

These points had never occurred to me before - thank you for pointing them out!

What Heather said, Liz and Ilana. These new perspectives (for me) are really helpful. Plus now I want to visit Kent and Surrey. :-)

RE: "Garden of England" -- I've always heard this as the motto for Kent.

Found this at The Guardian ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jun/01/ruralaffairs.travelnews)

" Kent loses its Garden of England title to North Yorkshire

The proud title of Garden of England has slipped from the grasp of Kent after more than 400 years, according to a survey which condemns the county as overrun with railways, traffic jams and chavs.

The title - dating back to a dish of Kentish cherries which particularly satisfied King Henry VIII - has been taken 250 miles north and awarded to the wide-open spaces of North Yorkshire, with a rating of 31.1%. "

Railways, traffic jams, and chavs, oh my! Not garden like at all. I think we can rest assured that Austen knew where the "garden of England" was. We saw these signs when we were in and out of Kent a few years ago:

>266 lyzard:

Yes, I think we can be confident that she wouldn't be treated as Miss Taylor was treated by the Woodhouses. :(

>271 Nickelini:

Probably the other thing that comes in here is Austen's deliberately misplaced geography---it's been pointed out that she was careful to make sure that Highbury couldn't be associated with any real place and that the distances in the novel etc. don't really add up.

271> Railways, traffic jams, and chavs, oh my!

Chavs??

The pain level actually lessened for a couple of days and I was hopeful, but I'm back to having a massive head... managed to read and take notes on one chapter.... Sorry about the previous wrong numbering. My attention to detail is not what it should/could be.

Lots happening in this chapter!

Volume II, Chapter XV

101. and conceived Miss Hawkins to have held such a place in society as Mrs Elton’s consequence only could surpass.
I'm not sure I understand what is meant here. Didn't help that as I was reading it I had completely forgotten that Miss Hawkins and Mrs Elton were one and the same person!

102. “Oh! but dear Miss Woodhouse, she is now in such retirement, such obscurity, so thrown away.—Whatever advantages she may have enjoyed with the Campbells are so palpably at an end! And I think she feels it. I am sure she does. She is very timid and silent. One can see that she feels the want of encouragement. I like her the better for it. I must confess it is a recommendation to me. I am a great advocate for timidity—and I am sure one does not often meet with it.—But in those who are at all inferior, it is extremely prepossessing. Oh! I assure you, Jane Fairfax is a very delightful character, and interests me more than I can express.”
This basically tells us everything we need to know about Mrs Elton!

103.“You appear to feel a great deal—but I am not aware how you or any of Miss Fairfax’s acquaintance here, any of those who have known her longer than yourself, can shew her any other attention than”—
What was she going to finish the sentence with? Can't make it out.

104. I should be extremely displeased if Wright were to send us up such a dinner, as could make me regret having asked more than Jane Fairfax to partake of it. I have no idea of that sort of thing. It is not likely that I should, considering what I have been used to.
Please explain this passage. Also, who is Wright? Her maid? Not the cook, as she would be 'Mrs' something or other, but hard to tell with Mrs Elton...

105. Of course she manages to mention the barouche-landau again!

106. She was quite one of her worthies—the most amiable, affable, delightful woman—just as accomplished and condescending as Mrs. Elton meant to be considered.
Miss Bates is condescending?

107. “Another thing must be taken into consideration too—Mrs. Elton does not talk to Miss Fairfax as she speaks of her. We all know the difference between the pronouns he or she and thou, the plainest spoken amongst us; we all feel the influence of a something beyond common civility in our personal intercourse with each other—a something more early implanted."
I understand the rest of this passage, but this business with the pronouns confuses me. What does he mean by it? I should mention that I'm not entirely clear on the proper usage of 'thou'.

108. I wonder how she speaks of the Coles—what she calls them! How can she find any appellation for them, deep enough in familiar vulgarity? She calls you, Knightley—what can she do for Mr. Cole?"
Nothing really. Just found this to be an eloquent comment.

109. Self-controul. Odd spellings do pop up, but I found this one amusing.

>273 WildMaggie:

Well, I know what that means, but I think I'll leave Joyce to provide her own definition. :)

>274 Smiler69:

No problem!

Volume II, Chapter XV (XXXIII / 33)

101. Miss Augusta Hawkins of Bristol. :)

It means that it is clear that Miss Hawkins was of a lower social standing than Mr Elton, and that she has moved up the social tree by her marriage.

102. Poor Jane!

103. Emma is suggesting than in Jane's situation, there really isn't any practical assistance that her friends can offer her; they can only help the Bateses as they have been doing, and be kind to Jane herself.

Mrs Elton responds by (effectively) threatening to force Jane out of her chosen retirement and into the public eye whether she likes it or not.

104. In context, Wright would be the Eltons' cook; a cook wouldn't necessarily get a prefix to the name (and at this time would be as likely to be a man as a woman). Mrs Elton is indirectly bragging about her lavish housekeeping, insinuating that their meals are always so elaborate and prepared in such abundance that she would be able to invite dinner guests at a moment's notice without worrying about what would be served to them---the Eltons dine alone as they dine with guests. "What I have been used to" indicates that this is how things were done at Maple Grove, and that Mrs Elton believes it to be a sign of high social standing. (It isn't, necessarily.)

105. Naturally!

106. That's from Miss Bates' point of view---she has received Mrs Elton's attentions exactly as Mrs Elton wanted them received, i.e. Miss Bates thinks Mrs Elton is "accomplished and condescending".

("Condescending" in the correct, social sense, as we discussed re: Pride And Prejudice, not in the always-nasty way we use the word now.)

107. Many languages have different pronouns to indicate degrees of formality, or conversely degrees of intimacy, between people. As you would know, of course, in French there is a distinction between vous and tu. In English the equivalents were "thou" and "you" (or "ye"); informal and formal; but these have been lost in one big all-encompassing "you" (formal, informal, singular, plural).

Mr Knightley is suggesting that people know how they should speak to other people---that Mrs Elton is more polite (formal) when speaking to Jane than she is when speaking about her to other people, and that therefore Jane herself might not in fact find her so intolerable in person as they do.

108. Again showing Emma's sensitivity to matters touching Mr Knightley's dignity.

109. That was the archaic spelling, just going out of fashion then.

>273 WildMaggie: Chavs??
>275 lyzard: Well, I know what that means, but I think I'll leave Joyce to provide her own definition. :)

Gladly. First, the dictionary definition, courtesy of M-W11 ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chav):

" chavs

British slang disparaging

: a young person in Britain of a type stereotypically known for engaging in aggressively loutish behavior especially when in groups and for wearing flashy jewelry and athletic casual clothing (such as tracksuits and baseball caps) Like Eminem, Lady Sovereign is a poster child for the white lower-middle class. She's what's known in the London press as a “chav”: a thieving, pot-smoking, gaudy-jewelry-wearing, white city kid with no ambition. — Martin Edlund, New York Sun, 12 July 2005. Chavs take a lot of explaining, but stereotypical adjectives are: binge-drinking, bling-loving, boob-displaying, Burberry-wearing. — Vogue, April 2006. .“Chav”—the champion buzzword of 2004 in Britain, according to one language maven there—refers to something between a subculture and a social class. … the unofficial definition sounds rather condescending or even cruel: a clueless suburbanite with appalling taste and a tendency toward track suits and loud jewelry. — Rob Walker, New York Times, 2 Jan. 2005.

chavvy \ˈcha-vē\ play adjective chavvier chavviest
.“She looked too chavvy and cheap on the first day of auditions,” a source tells the Sun. “They want her to have a designer look with chic class—more Posh Spice than Vicky Pollard in Little Britain, which is how she has looked more than a few times.” — Marina Hyde, The Guardian (London), 7 June 2013.
.They might look like those white chavvy high-tops sold for 20 quid in discount sports stores. However, the shoes in question are made from the skins of exotic animals. — Roxanne Sorooshian, Sunday Herald, 3 Mar. 2013"

-> Here is a 17 second clip of a chav who is near and dear to my heart (the girl): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wgcOsTY1iY

Chavs are not very Jane Austen.

Bumping for a relisten