#MeToo

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#MeToo

1sturlington
Fev 14, 2018, 5:35 pm

Laurie Penny continues to astound me with her writing. I thought this was a fantastic essay calling men to account and grow up in the wake of the #metoo movement: https://longreads.com/2018/02/14/the-great-stink/

These are the concluding paragraphs, addressed to men:

So I do understand how it feels, and it’s coming from a place of sympathy, as well as love, when I tell you to suck it up.

Suck it up and let go. Let go of your resentment at women’s lack of patience, let go of your wounded pride, let go of your useless shame, and let go of the idea of being a “good guy.” “Good” is not a thing you are, it’s a thing you do, or don’t do. The world is not neatly divided into good and bad men. It never was, and we need to let go of the idea that it ever was, so that we can finally be better to one another, finally learn to deal with our shit like grown-ups in this strange new cityscape we’re crawling through together, trying to find our way to the light. That’s the only way we’re going to move from a place of holding abusers to account, into a future where abuse is less likely to happen.

We won’t get to that world by continuing to infantilize men, nor by clinging to the curiously sexist belief that they are too fragile to cope with the consequences of their actions. That sort of belief might be nice, but ultimately, it is not kind. It is not a kindness to have low expectations of men, to always be doing the emotional work for them. It is not a kindness to give in to the threat — so common in abusive relationships — that if we don’t do what they want, they will do violence to themselves, or to us, or both. For a long time, I thought that I was being loving to men by expecting less of them. I thought wrong. I was not being loving. I was not being kind. I was only being nice — and nice is not enough.

2LolaWalser
Editado: Fev 15, 2018, 11:43 am

I'm beginning to think there's more than just hurt feelings and embarrassment to the knee-jerk "not-all-men" and similar maneuvers--it's actual part of their fight to preserve their privilege.

It makes me indescribably angry that anyone looks at a flood of stories about harassment and assault and meets all that with a grievance and a worry that "feminists are ruining sex". To say nothing of portraying men as the victims.

And men don't just appear "fragile", they are also, apparently, total cretins because incapable of taking on, studying and processing the fact of historical-and-ongoing discrimination against women and the myriad ramifications of that feature of life on this planet, and also some kind of disabled, because stubbornly incapable of empathising with women.

No, we must extend understanding to them. It's tough for poor men to understand that their privilege is built on women's pain. Tell them even that a woman, ten, hundred, a thousand have been harassed and raped in their town, their company, their family, and somehow, instead of discussing that harrassment and that violence, showing what it means to grow up and exist in a world like that, how that affects a woman's life, daily life, our health, psyche, outlook, future, ambition; instead of that, we must discuss how will he be able to flirt and hit on women, how his precious erotic life might suffer and thus, down the line, the entire species, because clearly wanting equality and dignity for women means sex is dead.

All those harassed, beaten, murdered women, all the women who never got a chance, all the women who never will get a chance, and I'm still asked to worry first and foremost about whether the precious dickheads will be getting erections and what to do with them.

3sturlington
Fev 15, 2018, 11:50 am

It makes me so angry. I'm tired of the labor that must go into preserving men's feelings.

4LolaWalser
Fev 15, 2018, 12:54 pm

Seriously. Pampered Hollywood and assorted white bitches not worth their manly compassion?--well how about the Juarez murders, the Asian femicides, the rape camps in Africa and the Balkans--can we talk about the whys and wherefores of this violence, or is it only a convenient object lesson to the afore-mentioned white bitches to shut up and count their blessings?

So we can move to commiserating with how hard it is to be a man today--the only real tragedy.

5susanbooks
Fev 15, 2018, 7:21 pm

>3 sturlington: I'm tired of the labor that must go into preserving men's feelings.

Exactly this! I'm so exhausted by straight, white, cis, economically privileged men and their delicate little selves. Since the US election, I can barely stand to look at them (my friends and most students excepted). I find myself surprised when I see one doing something kind -- oh, look! they can have feelings after all, I think, like it's a revelation. I'm becoming the caricature of the man-hating feminist that reddit delights in, but they keep giving me reasons. I actually had one in class the other day who enjoys using his privilege to "play devil's advocate" and so argued that transphobia was overstated and bathroom laws aren't discriminatory. The other students easily demolished him with those pesky fact things, but just that he felt okay to spew such ignorance out loud in a college classroom . . . ugh. He also has a Blue Lives Matter patch on his backpack.

6southernbooklady
Fev 15, 2018, 8:32 pm

>2 LolaWalser: No, we must extend understanding to them. It's tough for poor men to understand that their privilege is built on women's pain.

I'll admit, I don't feel the slightest inclination to coddle. All my patience and compassion have been claimed by the ones who have been suffering. There isn't anything left over for the ones who "need help understanding" (ei, are afraid to deal with the real world.)

Those who get defensive and combative over this upswell of testimony, they are the climate change deniers of sexism. Their fantasy that they live in a good world is more important than the reality that they live in a cesspool that breeds sexual predators who thrive on making women suffer -- even when the evidence is right in front of them. When woman after woman admits that yes, #MeToo. The human race's capacity for denial is limitless.

One hopes that like those who deny climate change is real, "Real" will happen to them whether they admit it exists or not.

7LolaWalser
Out 7, 2018, 1:13 pm

I'm hating most of the media conversation about MeToo ("is it over yet? is it a storm in a teacup? aren't the women worse off now?") and have done from the start--most of it stupid, wrong, offensive, and bloody head-exploding traumatising (how many times have women relived their worst hours while reeking assholes and their handmaidens were scoring vicious little media points?) so I'm reluctant even to link to the fucking NY Times, but you can find the whole article without me (fair warning: you may want to skip the entry by the dickhead arguing about the natural "brutality" of "male desire")... I'm saving only this bit as really worthwhile:

From Catharine Mackinnon's commentary on "MeToo", my emphasis:

(...) Culturally, it is still said “women allege” or “claim” they were sexually assaulted. Those accused “deny” what was alleged. What if survivors “report” sexual violation and the accused “alleges” or “claims” it did not occur, or occur as reported?


Think about the implications made through language. Make the changes you can. Change language and action and mentality will follow. Never let yourself be silenced.

8susanbooks
Editado: Out 7, 2018, 2:09 pm

Oh, I like that! Thank you for posting that!

ETA: I know, I know, presumption of innocence. But right now it's really nice to think the other way about sexual assault.
( I know I don't have to explain to this group; I added this for anyone coming here to pick a fight)

9LolaWalser
Out 7, 2018, 2:18 pm

>8 susanbooks:

Sexual assault is unique in being so burdened by the tradition of misogyny that we haven't come anywhere close to eradicating the notion that it is no crime at all.

10susanbooks
Out 7, 2018, 4:09 pm

I know. I was telling my therapist that hearing Dr. ford's testimony, to me what she described is different from rape only in degrees. But if it had happened to me, I'd have blamed myself somehow & been too humiliated by the guys' laughter to ever think of telling anyone, and I wouldn't have considered it assault anyway, cos it was all somehow my fault.

My students seem much better at this than women in Gen X and older.

11susanbooks
Out 7, 2018, 4:17 pm

Emma Cline has a great section in The Girls where she talks about the manipulative power of a group of boys laughing at a girl. She says something like, you can be strong and stand against it, but then you're verbally beaten for a long time afterwards. Or you can acquiesce and laugh too, agree that you're a figure of fun because at least their attention will shift to another victim sooner.

I can completely see my high school self cringingly laughing with Brett Kavanaugh over the nothing that just didn't happen.

Not that I've been taking any of this personally or anything. Lol (well, not much of a lol)

12LolaWalser
Out 7, 2018, 5:19 pm

>10 susanbooks:

Yes, that sounds all too familiar. The burden of responsibility and blame is entirely placed on the girl. Even in a disingenuously flattering fashion--girls are/ought to be smarter, more mature etc. than boys. Just a backhanded way to blame.

13Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 27, 2018, 10:47 pm

Any chance I can pick your brain briefly, Lola?

14LolaWalser
Nov 28, 2018, 8:59 am

#q3

Hi, what's up?

15Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 28, 2018, 6:26 pm

Ok, so I'm not even sure how to go about this, but all of this metoo stuff is sort of breaking my head. I mean, I'll preface all of this with a disclaimer that my own early twenties were a blur of way too many drugs, inappropriate sexual interaction (to the point that I basically went voluntarily celibate with the idea that I probably should just be yanking myself from the game until I could get my own shit straight) and just general dysfunction. I mean, there was little to nothing of sobriety, sanity or sexual restraint in any of it, but...

One of the things that I keep coming back to in trying to suss all of this out occurred in my mid-twenties when I was working at a relatively high end restaurant in the city I was living in. Pretty upscale place, like Robin Williams was in, Winona Ryder, Will Smith and a few other people.

I'm there for a couple of years, largely working as a food runner (basically just the guy that brings food from the kitchen and out to the tables) and a jr. server. I mean, I'm not about to be assigned any of the busy shifts or VIP tables or anything, but... One night the mayor and the city's DA come in with a bunch of people (6? 7? people total on the table? I don't particularly recall. I do remember that the gender ratio is skewed to male, so I automatically assume this isn't particularly a date night out or anything. A political function of some sort most likely.)

And as their night starts, I'm dropping drinks on the table, when the district attorney starts getting a bit vampish with me. I mean, this, in and of itself, isn't anything too unusual. Some large percentage of restaurant work seems to consist of making men look good in front of their dates or business associates, or making women feel they're attractive. But the DA does this thing where when I approach the table, she starts running her fingernail up and down the cleft between my buttocks and down the inside of my thigh, sort of while nibbling on her other hand's index finger. Reaches and grabs the inside of my thigh at one point. I mean, I just sort of shrug it off "Well, hello, Ms. Xxxxx. And how are you this evening?" and answer her questions about the menu as best I can. Maybe make a joke about it suddenly becoming warm in the room. I mean, the whole thing probably lasts like 5-10 minutes tops over 3-4 visits to the table (she had me run to the kitchen at one point to figure out something for her.) And the final visit to the table, she reaches up and cups my right buttock in her hand, a couple of fingers splayed across my glutes and one or two more resting in my groin. I think I just sort of looked down at her and laughed (she was displaying quite a bit more tact than the woman who held a bread plate up to my crotch while suggesting that I might expose myself so she and her friends could see how I measured up).

I mean, the district attorney, although roughly a decade older than me, isn't an unattractive woman in any way shape or form. And I'm assuming that there's nothing completely serious about the play, given that she's the city's most prominent female elected-politician and I'm the 27 year old guy dropping her appetizers and drinks on the table. And I eventually give a split-second glance to the other end of the table to see what the mayor is thinking of all of this to see him looking at us slightly side-eye with his mouth hanging a bit open (I assume he eventually kicks word to the other end of the table that she might want to consider that she's in a public place, because the behavior stops as abruptly as it started, and I excuse myself, expressing a pressing urge for a cigarette or what have you...)

Which, for whatever my own twenties were, was just sort of mildly amusing story to tell for years... I mean, for the time and place, that was sort of just a random Thursday night.

To what extent would you personally find any of that to be inappropriate or appropriate and what are your own metrics for making that decision?

16LolaWalser
Nov 28, 2018, 7:25 pm

I'm bewildered you'd need a second opinion on whether her behaviour was inappropriate and even more why you singled me out to ask. Assuming you're posting in good faith and not as a trollish windup--yeah, I'd say it was bloody inappropriate, sexual harassment in fact.

As for my "metrics", it would take too long to answer as possible scenarios and contexts are too many. Trying to reduce it as much as possible, the first rule, imo, would be that any sexual/romantic interaction that is not consented to--enthusiastically--by all sides should not be happening. That said, what I'd actually do or try to do in any given situation, as shown by the past instances when I was subjected to sexual harassment and assorted inappropriate behaviour, would depend on exact circumstances.

17Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 28, 2018, 7:51 pm

The first part (needing a second opinion) might be a bit too involved to try to answer from my phone currently (though might go well into explaining Male confusion on this topic. Most men I've run this past seem to be conditioned to view receiving such attention as a positive. And very few of them are remotely surprised that such things would happen.)

As for asking you specifically, I generally consider you to be a relatively decent authority (meaning I trust your opinion) on such topics.

18Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Nov 29, 2018, 12:04 am

#whyididntreport

Because when the mayor stares in astonishment as the district attorney touches your testicles, you assume that the adults in the room already have a pretty good idea what is going on. They're the ones doing it. Not only do you not report, but you assume that this is what adults do.

19Adriann.L
Nov 29, 2018, 4:29 am

Este utilizador foi removido como sendo spam.

20Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 29, 2018, 11:43 am

It's an interesting question, given the context, because in this particular instance there was quite a bit of "feeling" going on and little to no discussion outside of what particular menu item she might be sampling that evening.

21Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 29, 2018, 11:50 am

I'm bewildered you'd need a second opinion on whether her behaviour was inappropriate and even more why you singled me out to ask. Assuming you're posting in good faith and not as a trollish windup--yeah, I'd say it was bloody inappropriate, sexual harassment in fact.

Given the world of my mid-twenties, had you asked me whether that was sexual harassment, I'd probably have told you, quite literally, that it was a Thursday. Hell, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd probably rank it somewhere around a 3 for severity. She managed to keep her body parts inside of her own clothing, well outside my own. She didn't follow me home to ascertain where I lived and then walk in my house uninvited and unasked while screaming that no one was allowed to turn her down, nor did she attempt to/proceed to initiate any sort of intercourse without asking...

As for a second opinion, it's actually a question that I've put to quite a few people at this point. There's quite a bit less consensus on the issue than you seem to think. And that's not merely limited to the male perspective.

22sturlington
Nov 29, 2018, 12:27 pm

Here's what we teach our preschool children: No one may touch your body if you don't say it's okay. Not just in certain places, but anywhere on your body. This is a basic rule and it shouldn't stop applying once people become adults. It's should be an ingrained, understood rule of society. Even a handshake requires consent because it must be offered and then returned. Innocuous hugs, pats on the shoulder, arms around the shoulder or waist, hand on the back--from people I don't know well, these all make me uncomfortable, even if they are well intentioned. (Obviously, it's different with intimate partners or close family--I'm talking among strangers and acquaintances and even distant relatives.) This doesn't even approach nonconsensual touching of genitals, which should always be out of bounds.

It's bizarre to me why we expect better behavior from our children than we do from adults. Whether it's a woman or a man doing the nonconsensual touching, it's about power and control, not about come-ons.

23alvaret
Nov 29, 2018, 12:44 pm

>15 Jesse_wiedinmyer: I agree with Lola here, it sounds like a clear case of sexual harassment.

There is nothing in doing a good job being polite and friendly in a service business that implies any form of sexual consent and this isn't even a border-line case, the DA's action was way out of line. Laughing away an uncomfortable situation is a common response, especially in situations were you have been trained to be polite and not make a scene. From your description of the reactions from the others around the table the inappropriateness of the situation was probably clear to them too.

24RickHarsch
Nov 29, 2018, 5:46 pm

Jesse, since you posted this thread to me, I assume you want my opinion. It's clearly sexual harassment, but at the same time (sorry if all this is a bit cliche) in a patriarchal milieu it's also not surprising that men don't react to your story the same way women do (I assume that's the case, though I don't think you said it broke down that way--I just can't imagine any woman saying it was not sexual harassment); the analogy I can think of is that while racial epithets mean a lot when used by a white person against a black person, it is hard for a black person to hurt the feelings of a white person with a racial slur.

(A nice fable from the new metoo environs: I was recently invited to read in St. Paul at a book store during an upper Mississippi River book tour, and what would have one year ago been the best gig in Minnesota, was sort of ad hoc boycotted--it was in Garrison Keillor's--and so it was now perhaps the worst place in the state to read. The experience was perfectly fine (four strangers, two acquaintances) because of one young Asian man who worked there and was very lively and engaged, but the elders of the shop were grim and impolite. I told them exactly that on the way out. The store is across the street from Macalester College and it is safe to assume that young students, too, were outraged about Kiellor's behavior and responses to the accusations that, from what I heard, were much like those of many others - only gradually admitted to, downplayed, then as if not worth fighting sort of admitted to.
A horrible fable from the new metoo environs. My first day of the tour was in Iowa City during the Iowa Book Festival, and I was on a panel the morning that Collins determined that your next supreme court judge would be a rapist. Luckily I was joined on the panel by a feminist from Macedonia who expressed her outrage with a great deal more eloquence and equanimity than I did, countering two mealy-mouthed authors who didn't really give a shit, which was expressed as a sort of there are two sides to everything. Anyway, I had not known yet about Keillor before I arrived to the store, or if I had his name was lost in the crowd...But once I found out, in the hour between arriving and reading I went to a nearby coffee shop and spoke with whoever I could, and one woman, perhaps late 40s/early 50s, shocked me by stating that Kavanaugh's (I forgot the name just now and typed into google 'supreme court rape' and, well, it came right up) accuser, Dr. Ford, would have been more believable had she at least reported the crime within, well, you know, something reasonable...like ten years, say. This all coincided with my best friend's wife, a high school teacher of, among other subjects, feminist theory, coming under fire for all kinds of things and yet having the guts to choose this time precisely, becoming so sick of that type of argument, to write an article in the La Crosse, Wisconsin, newspaper, about being raped 36 years prior. Unbelievably, she was, within one week of the publication of that article, reprimanded with a letter in her file for using the word 'penis' in class.)

25Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Nov 29, 2018, 6:24 pm

It's clearly sexual harassment, but at the same time (sorry if all this is a bit cliche) in a patriarchal milieu it's also not surprising that men don't react to your story the same way women do (I assume that's the case, though I don't think you said it broke down that way--I just can't imagine any woman saying it was not sexual harassment)

As I said, the answers have been all over the board. And there have been quite a few woman that have said they don't view it as sexual harassment. One of the first women that heard me speaking of it just blurted out "You're full of shit. Like any guy would complain about that or pass it up." Another just laughed and mentioned that she always flirted with the bar and service staff, because that's how you get free shit. I've heard variations on whatever the feminist version of Critical Race theory would be ("it will never rise to the same level because sexism against women is systemic and institutionalized'). One woman just laughed and said that it was great that the power is now in women's hands.

Quite a few people have outright said it doesn't count because there's never the explicit threat of bodily harm the women face constantly. I've had more than one woman suggest that it was just indicative of the fact that she must have really, really liked/found me attractive (to be fair, my ass probably was rather epic at that point. Some large part of the job was simply doing wind sprints on a back set of stairs while balancing 15-20 pounds of plates and food in my arms repeatedly over the course of the night.)

Men, for the most part, have been relatively split also. I've heard the argument that this is the sort of thing that undermines the legitimacy of the metoo movement (not necessarily an idea that I adhere to). Quite a few have outright stated that they would consider it either harassment or assault. And more than enough have just laughed and said that I must have enjoyed it or would be an idiot not to.

If anything, I think I find the lack of consensus to be one of the more troubling aspects of the whole thing...

I mean, you'd probably have to bear in mind that I generally don't sleep around, and after about 15 years of service work, my general reaction to any sort of sexual suggestiveness from women is normally just outright annoyance. There's a local pool hall with a nice craft beer selection across the corner from my house. I was in there a few months back reading Brownmiller's In Our Time when one of the female patrons started asking me insightful questions about it like "What's the woman on the cover doing? Playing with herself?" For the most part, I just shrug and try to get on with life.

It's been a fairly fascinating question to put to people.

27Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 12:07 am

>22 sturlington:

What is your "we" there?

28Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 1:26 am

>26 John5918:

Nah, it's a witch hunt.

29alvaret
Editado: Nov 30, 2018, 2:48 am

>25 Jesse_wiedinmyer: Why do you find it surprising? A lot of people can't even recognize rape if it is not done by a stranger in a dark-alley. In this case it appears to have taken you quite a bit of time to recognize this incident as sexual harassment yourself, but yet you find it weird that people who weren't there don't immediately recognize it the first time they hear of it.

An important thing feminism does is identifying common harmful structures rather than focusing on who the perpetrator was or how the victim was dressed, but doing that in a new situation takes a bit of training for both men and women.

30sturlington
Nov 30, 2018, 6:38 am

>27 Jesse_wiedinmyer: Parents and preschool teachers. The county health department also puts on an awareness program. It's a fairly universal message, at least where I live.

31LolaWalser
Nov 30, 2018, 8:54 am

>26 John5918:

That's a misleading headline so deserves clarification:

Speaking at TEDWomen in Palm Springs, Tarana Burke said a media backlash had framed the movement as a witch hunt.

"Suddenly, a movement to centre survivors of sexual violence is being talked about as a vindictive plot against men," she said.

"Victims are heard and then vilified."


I've posted about my own disgust at the media coverage of #MeToo here already, but I'm a little surprised to hear Burke talk about it being called a "witch hunt" as something, if I'm understanding her, new/ish. The "backlash", as far as I can tell, was there from the start, at least once it went "big time" with Hollywood celebs etc.

32LolaWalser
Nov 30, 2018, 9:03 am

>28 Jesse_wiedinmyer:

So the mask comes off. I thought I might regret looking at a post by someone I blocked years ago, and I was right. Too bad, won't happen again. Trolls, eat shit.

33Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 9:38 am

>32 LolaWalser:

As currently practiced, I'd say yes. The lack of attention to the Bennett/Argento thing is the edge case.

34Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 9:51 am

>29 alvaret:

Find what surprising? I find absolutely NONE of this surprising. Did the Pope know about abuse allegations? Quite likely. Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby? Probably did everything they were accused of. Did Asia Argento fuck a 17 year old? Yeah, I'd say it probably happened. Kid probably thought he was touched by the hand of God. Brett Kavanaugh? I'd say guilty as charged and I pretty much deactivated Facebook during the coverage, so I don't know anything but scant details.

I'm just trying to figure out what world the rest of y'all are living in where ANY of this is surprising.

The DA torching my testicles? Like I said, I'll give her a 3/10. Barely even flirting for the time and place. I probably wouldn't even remember the incident had it been anyone else.

35John5918
Nov 30, 2018, 9:52 am

>34 Jesse_wiedinmyer:

Torching? I suspect you would have remembered that!

36LolaWalser
Nov 30, 2018, 9:58 am

People, please consider Not Feeding the Trolls. This is a moderated group. Disruptive behaviour such as the shit-stirring campaign this person has engaged in before and apparently now again can and should be reported.

37Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 10:03 am

Nicki can reprimand me as she sees fit.

38Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Nov 30, 2018, 6:52 pm

And hold on a minute... Why are we discussing whether or not the food runner understood that the behavior was inappropriate? Isn't the 39 year old district attorney automatically more qualified to be making that distinction than the food runner?

39Jesse_wiedinmyer
Nov 30, 2018, 11:56 pm

>36 LolaWalser:

Report the fuck out of this shit.

Every single person reading this, report it.

Because I've got nothing but respect for our group moderator and await her judgment.

40southernbooklady
Dez 1, 2018, 6:49 am

Folks, please remember the terms of this group

on-topic, respectful, and constructive discussion about feminism.


If what you want to post doesn't fit that description, think twice about submitting it. This group has not required any moderation at all since it was first implemented over two years ago which speaks to the commitment of everyone to the terms above. Don't lose sight of it.

41Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 7:24 am

I think that a discussion about whether or not the DA touching the wait staff's genitalia is pretty fucking on-topic at the moment. For the rest of it, I'm just trying to remember to breathe in through my nose and out through my mouth.

42sturlington
Dez 1, 2018, 8:15 am

>41 Jesse_wiedinmyer: If you are posting in good faith perhaps you could explain how this discussion relates to the #MeToo movement or to feminism. x

43Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 2:42 pm

To be blunt, I'm not particularly sure what "good faith" means in the context of this discussion. As it is, I still waver massively on my own interpretation of the events in question. As to how this is germane to the #metoo movement/and or feminism, I'm reasonably certain both you and Nicki are aware of precisely whom I'm speaking (And no, I'm not particularly at a point where I'll be making that assertion very publicly.) That information alone should be sufficient, methinks. I can tell you this, though (and many men I've spoken with agree), that the underlying dynamic involved (a woman bemoans men for the very sort of behavior that she herself engages in) seems to be key to understanding why men are loathe to think that women take the issue of sexual harassment seriously. As for me, about the only thing I can even think to do with most of it is turn it into a stand-up routine. And there is some sense to me that the whole thing is abso-fuckin-lutely hilarious. Then again, my sense of humor has always been a bit black.

However, if you wish to have a conversation in the abstract about the event or the dynamics in reactions, I'd be more than willing to do that.

And really, I don't know whether to cry to keep from laughing, laugh to keep from crying, burn down the world, or just let climate change run it's course most days. Like I said, some days I find it absolutely hilarious, some days I'd swear the universe is conspiring to play one hell of a practical joke one me, other days I really want to tell the woman she had better sit down and shut up, others I hope she gets the presidency. The past year has been a bit of a mindfuck, to put it mildly.

44susanbooks
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 4:06 pm

"A woman bemoans men for the very sort of behavior she herself engages in"

But because one woman sexually assaulted you, how does that translate to women generally? The overwhelming amount of sexual assaults that I've ever heard reported anywhere are male on female. What happened to you is awful, but I fail to see how one woman's actions mean the rest of us have lost the right to speak up. Unless your assaulter is in the movement or on this board, I don't understand the relevance of the above comment.

And it's interesting, too, that just as nearly every discussion of Female Genital Mutilation gets derailed by talk of circumcision (which I'm against, but 2 different things), here we are in this discussion of Me too talking about this.

As an ally, sometimes, even if you've suffered, been affected by similar things, it's your job to listen and learn that similar is not the same. White people need to learn this all the time in discussions of race, straight people in discussions of gender, etc. You might want to consider that before you throw "witch hunt" around again.

You might also want to consider that what happened to you that one time at work is just Tuesday for some of us.

45Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 4:24 pm

The overwhelming amount of sexual assaults that I've ever heard reported anywhere are male on female.

My guess is that patriarchal gender dynamics very much come into play with this. As noted, most men that I've spoken to find it an enviable position to be in. Which may be something of a root issue in the discussion. A society that treats consent/sex as a commodity that women hold and that men seek to obtain kind of indicates to men that being sexually assaulted by a woman is a good thing (assuming the woman is attractive enough.) This is probably a very large part of the reason that every time women complain about sexual harassment or assault, men very often reply with "Women do this all the time" or a sarcastic "It only counts when men do it."

It also normalises harassment and assault as a mode of interaction.

What happened to you is awful, but I fail to see how one woman's actions mean the rest of us have lost the right to speak up.

I never said that. In point of fact, I think I pretty directly indicated that this isn't a view that I hold.

And this is not even remotely one woman's actions, it's just an absurdly, stunningly good example of what a standard night in the service industry consisted of. As noted above, at the time, I'd have told you it was a Thursday. Hell, if anything, I'd have said that the fact that an extremely accomplished and rather attractive woman had deemed me worthy of the play had been a slight net positive point. One of the phrases that I've heard a few times while discussing this with other men is "bragging rights."

I'm guessing that there's actually something between those two poles is actually a good deal of why men believe sexual harassment and assault to be normal.

Very few men whatsoever that I've spoken to are even remotely surprised that such an event would have occurred.

46Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 4:42 pm

You might also want to consider that what happened to you that one time at work is just Tuesday for some of us.

Well, that's been my line on this repeatedly, no?

Just a Thursday.

47sturlington
Dez 1, 2018, 4:42 pm

>43 Jesse_wiedinmyer: As to how this is germane to the #metoo movement/and or feminism, I'm reasonably certain both you and Nicki are aware of precisely whom I'm speaking (And no, I'm not particularly at a point where I'll be making that assertion very publicly.)

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

48Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 1, 2018, 4:43 pm

>47 sturlington:

Ah, there was a question via FB that you must have missed.

49Jesse_wiedinmyer
Dez 1, 2018, 10:06 pm

Jesse_wiedinmyer: As to how this is germane to the #metoo movement/and or feminism,

Regardless of context or interpretation, isn't the fact that the DA touched the food runner's testicles germane to a discussion on consent, feminist or not?

50jjwilson61
Dez 1, 2018, 11:21 pm

>45 Jesse_wiedinmyer: My guess is that patriarchal gender dynamics very much come into play with this. As noted, most men that I've spoken to find it an enviable position to be in. Which may be something of a root issue in the discussion. A society that treats consent/sex as a commodity that women hold and that men seek to obtain kind of indicates to men that being sexually assaulted by a woman is a good thing (assuming the woman is attractive enough.) This is probably a very large part of the reason that every time women complain about sexual harassment or assault, men very often reply with "Women do this all the time" or a sarcastic "It only counts when men do it."

It also normalises harassment and assault as a mode of interaction.


This is puzzling. You seem to be saying that because men desire women to sexually harass them that they think that women should desire men to harass them as well, and are upset when they don't. Can that be right?

51Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 3, 2018, 11:44 am

As noted above, I'm not particularly sure what response I'm trying to articulate as of yet. It's a rather complex discussion.
I mean, it's late in the season, but relatively early in the game, but... I think we're all still working on hammering out our messaging strategies and this one is very much in process.

Men desire women to sexually harass them? Not what I'm saying at all. By 8 years back, I'd be reading cheap Friends of the Library throwaway copies of books when I was in public so if any woman chose to interrupt my reading to start a conversation, I could merely turn to the front of the book, tear out the first 10 or so pages, hand them over without saying a word, and go back to reading.

At the pool hall mentioned above, I'd been sitting around one night a few months attempting to read when one of the younger women in the place approached me while nibbling on a dill pickle spear. She asked me to settle a question for her. "Is a cucumber a fruit or a vegetable?"

Me? I'm 42 years old. And a 22 year old isn't (and really probably doesn't need to be) anywhere near the books for me. So I did what any good autistic would do in the situation, and I googled the shit. Grabbed the first link that came up and read the link's argument that botanists consider this to be a false distinction (the argument being that any part of a plant that can be eaten is a vegetable, ergo fruits are a subset of the category "vegetable.")

This led to a five minute conversation about how this was, quite literally, the dumbest thing she ever heard. While she held a pickle spear an inch from her mouth. By the end of the conversation, where I finally said "I have the option of believing google or the crazy woman at the bar and it was a tough call and all, but...," I thought she was about to start brushing her teeth with the pickle spear. She didn't like it. I enjoyed it even less.

And really, whatever I'm trying to say here is a pretty complex conversation. And quite a bit of it is about what I'm trying not to say. @ >29 alvaret: it's noted that it often takes people 20 years to recognise rape that occurs in a dark alley. The District Attorney's actions have been alternately within this thread been described as both sexual harassment and sexual assault. Like I noted, I'd have told you it was a Thursday. It may very well have simply been a Tuesday for all I know. Could have easily been a Friday or Saturday.

As noted in my initial questioning of Lola, quite a bit of work in the service industry consists of a bit of ego-massaging (making men feel they are accomplished, women that they are attractive.) Someone elsewhere had referred to this as "ball-brushing," which is a rather brilliant bit of metaphor. Another way of saying that one allows women to feel that they are attractive might be to suggest that one allows a woman to perform her femininity and respond in ways that suggest one appreciates the performance.

The woman (a woman celebrating her 30th birthday with 5 female friends) that held a bread plate up to my crotch and suggested I expose myself so she and her friends might see how I measured up? Just another day of the week. The first woman I'd talked with about that particular incident how that all played out precisely. Mind you, there was quite a bit of performative femininity preceding the actual suggestion that I expose myself. That particular suggestion crossed a line for me, though...

And so at my next visit to the table, I politely suggested that although she was a rather attractive woman, she was also a good five years my senior and so having sex with her might be a bit too much like fucking my own mother. I have to say that no one else (either on the table, nor the server whose table I was assisting) found my response to be nearly as appropriate as I did.

Me? I thought it absolutely hilarious. Even moreso, given the fact that quite a bit of my early twenties were spent sleeping with older women. The woman I was relating this to described my response as "evil". I suggested that there might be only so much emotional labor that one receives on any given night with their appetizer sampler.

The "ball-brushing" discussed above? Well, as noted in my initial foray into this conversation, can very frequently take a turn from the metaphoric to the literal. It very frequently has (and at 42, I can only suggest that the next woman who reaches inside my pants may find herself kicked in her own if she's not taken the time to work out a few other things first, such as whether I might appreciate the gesture beforehand.)

As for the rest of it, about the only thing I can think to say is that 42 years on the planet (more than a decade of which were spent in various forms of service industry work), has led me to encounter quite a few women that are... How does even say this...?

Let's just say that there are a lot of thirsty women out there.

Some of them move on to other things. And they might want to work on their messaging also. Because words are one thing, behavior quite a different form of communication. And a world where men need to understand that people shouldn't be touched without their consent might need to be a world where a lot fewer men are touched without their consent. I mean, there's probably a fuckton of other issues that need to be addressed concurrently (representation of women in media, reproductive autonomy, access to health care, sex education, refraining from keeping women out of positions of economic and political authority, and on and on and on and on...), but...

The conversation also probably needs to move beyond "Men are all disgusting pigs."

And I'm actually one of the few people that you might meet that would suggest that "Nah, it's actually most of them."

But that has less to do with genitalia than it does with a host of other issues. Definitely a much more complex conversation than "Men are pieces of shit."

How does this relate to feminism? Well, I can only think that a world that values feminism values it for everyone. And Patriarchy, as someone else has noted, doesn't particularly have a gender.

52sturlington
Dez 3, 2018, 12:19 pm

I think people on this thread have been quite clear that nonconsensual touching is not okay, no matter who is touching or being touched. Again, I'll repeat, this is something we teach preschool kids. It's not difficult.

But I for one don't really need a blow-by-blow playback of every time you've have had an encounter with a woman that's disgusted you. No one on this thread is doing the equivalent. This thread is for discussing the #MeToo movement, posting news and analysis, etc. I suggest you start your own thread if you want to share personal experiences of this type and talk about what how women should modify their own behavior, and then the rest of us can choose to read it or not without missing out on other discussion.

The conversation also probably needs to move beyond "Men are all disgusting pigs."

The conversation was never that. I get really tired of men inserting themselves into the conversation and telling us what the conversation does or does not need to be. There are assumptions being made here that get made all the damned time and it's very repetitive and tiring.

I'm just going to X this conversation, unfortunately. I hope if others want to continue the discussion of the #MeToo movement in general that a new thread will be started.

53alvaret
Editado: Dez 3, 2018, 12:32 pm

A key-person in Swedish cultural life was today found guilty of two counts of rape (the surrounding scandal is the main reason why no Nobel prize of literature will be given this year). It is a rather disturbing story but I doubt that he would have even been reported without the MeToo movement, so I'll count it as a win. https://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/court-of-appeal-finds-former-artistic-director-gui...

54Jesse_wiedinmyer
Dez 3, 2018, 12:52 pm

I get really tired of men inserting themselves into the conversation and telling us what the conversation does or does not need to be

Nicki, I know I've thanked you on multiple occasions for challenging me to be a better person.

I'll take another moment now to do the same. And for consistently modeling an inclusive model of feminism.

55southernbooklady
Dez 3, 2018, 2:05 pm

>48 Jesse_wiedinmyer: there was a question via FB that you must have missed.

People can hardly be expected to know what other folks are talking about on facebook. If you're going to reference offsite conversations you should quote them.

56southernbooklady
Dez 3, 2018, 2:33 pm

>45 Jesse_wiedinmyer: A society that treats consent/sex as a commodity

That "/" implies that consent and sex are interchangeable in this conversation, when in fact the whole point of the #MeToo movement is that consent is utterly disregarded. Not important. Not even on the radar. Which is inevitable since all sexual assault is ultimately about exercising power. The "desire" is a desire to dominate. Whatever the genders involved it still comes down to one person dehumanizing another by denying them consent.

#MeToo unambiguously reveals how endemic, how common and normalized sexual assault is. it is an unflinching testimony to life in a society that doesn't care about consent. We don't want to hear the word "no" so we have created a society where consent is irrelevant. The backlash is a measure of how invested we are in things staying that way. Since we elected a sexual predator as president of the country, I'm going to say we're pretty damn invested.

57Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Dez 3, 2018, 3:12 pm

I'd probably argue that sexual assault would be a subset of the conversation about consent. Though almost the entirety of our root metaphors involving sex are based in transaction and power. As I've noted, i find nothing surprising about any of it at all.

And there's probably a pretty solid discussion to be included as to how consensus (or consensual decisions) are reached, it's been suggested that my voice is completely unnecessary (?!? Shrug). I've already received quite a bit of feedback (mostly oblique, things such as our pinning the responsibility for judging the appropriateness of the interaction in question on the food runner and not the District Attorney) as to more than let me know where things stand.

I'll gladly bow out. I thank you specifically once again before I go.

58alvaret
Dez 3, 2018, 3:06 pm

>57 Jesse_wiedinmyer: If the latter point refer to me I failed to make my argument clear. I was not talking about the DA at all. I just wanted to point out that your listeners reaction, although unfortunate, was not uncommon, as you seemed to find their reactions noteworthy. But this is drifting too far OT, I will not discuss it further here.

59Jesse_wiedinmyer
Set 25, 2021, 2:42 am

Hi.

60Jesse_wiedinmyer
Out 30, 2021, 11:44 am

Hey Nicki, what is my dead brother's name?

61Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Nov 6, 2021, 12:42 pm

Group admin has removed this message.

62Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Mar 11, 2022, 1:54 am

Lola, on a scale of -10,000 through 10,000, how inappropriate or appropriate is it that Kamala Harris's hands have been in contact with my fully clothed genitalia during the execution of standard service industry duties?

63susanbooks
Mar 11, 2022, 10:20 am

>62 Jesse_wiedinmyer: this event obviously troubles you but you aren't getting the response you seem to need from this group. Rather than referring repeatedly to that interaction here in the same exact way, maybe you could 1) rephrase your experience so we can understand it as trauma and not just as both-sidesism; and 2) post about this in a more appropriate forum (something like food servers' or neurodivergents' hellish experiences). As it is, you're sounding kind of trollish.

64krazy4katz
Mar 11, 2022, 10:01 pm

>62 Jesse_wiedinmyer: Seems like you have to stand further away from the tables you serve.

65Jesse_wiedinmyer
Mar 27, 2022, 9:55 pm

>rephrase your experience so we can understand it as trauma

You already understand my experience or you wouldn't ask me to "rephrase" it.

I've given you facts. Whatever spin you apply is your own.

66Jesse_wiedinmyer
Mar 27, 2022, 10:00 pm

>63 susanbooks: this event obviously troubles you but you aren't getting the response you seem to need from this group.

I would assume reports of sexual assault would be troubling.

And I'd assume that a feminist theory group's discussion of sexually abusive behaviors would be exactly where to discuss them.

67Jesse_wiedinmyer
Mar 27, 2022, 10:01 pm

>Seems like you have to stand further away from the tables you serve

Nah, I refuse to be tableside. Thanks for the victim blaming though.

68susanbooks
Editado: Mar 29, 2022, 3:40 pm

You know what else is troubling? Men trolling and dominating women's spaces, particularly women's spaces that are about men's domination of women. (comment removed by author because it was unnecessarily rude. I apologize for it.) If you want to say something about being vulnerable and hurt, say it. If you just want to be a smart-ass both-sideser, go somewhere else because you haven't found your audience here.

69southernbooklady
Mar 28, 2022, 6:15 pm

At some point when the Talk pages were redesigned the group's Terms were removed from the sidebar where they were visible to everyone. Here they are:

We seek on-topic, respectful, and constructive discussion about feminism. The validity of feminism is a given. Dissent is acceptable; disruption is not. Comments should pertain to the thread topic. Obnoxious, insulting, abusive, and threatening comments are unacceptable.


Since this conversation is not constructive, we can either move on or I can close the topic.

70Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Mar 28, 2022, 9:49 pm

Group admin has hidden this message. (mostre)
Both sides?

I would have figured that the only two sides in this discussion were "those opposed to sexual assault" and Donald Trump.

Right?

Only way you can figure I'm a both-sideser in this discussion is to assume sexually abusive behavior is a gendered behavior.

My side isn't "people with dicks", my side is ""people who think other people's genitals shouldn't be touched without their consent. "

Quit overlaying your CIS-heteronormative presumptions on my life.

71Jesse_wiedinmyer
Mar 28, 2022, 9:50 pm

Group admin has hidden this message. (mostre)

>Since this conversation is not constructive, we can either move on or I can close the topic.

Whatever you want.

When I was 28,I was sexually assaulted by the current vice president of the United States.

72Jesse_wiedinmyer
Mar 28, 2022, 10:34 pm

Group admin has hidden this message. (mostre)
For Jimmy Bennett, wherever the fuck you have ended up...

Kamala Harris sexually assaulted me

https://www.librarything.com/topic/286833#

Metoo

73susanbooks
Editado: Mar 29, 2022, 3:42 pm

I sincerely apologize for my part here. I value this group & its conversations. I'm sorry for being part of the problem.

74Jesse_wiedinmyer
Abr 1, 2022, 10:10 pm

In a world where language and naming are power, silence is oppression, is violence.

75Jesse_wiedinmyer
Abr 1, 2022, 10:19 pm

>rephrase your experience so we can understand it as trauma

No.

You have already designated the behavior as abusive.

I was abused.

76susanbooks
Abr 2, 2022, 5:26 pm

I agree. You describe an instance of sexual assault. No one has denied that. What do you want from us?

77Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Abr 2, 2022, 6:36 pm

>What do you want from us?

Maybe stop calling my addressing the issue as trolling.

78Jesse_wiedinmyer
Abr 2, 2022, 7:50 pm


There is a danger run by all powerless people: that we forget we are lying, or that lying becomes a weapon we carry over into relationships with people who do not have power over us.

79susanbooks
Abr 3, 2022, 10:10 am

Whatevs.

80southernbooklady
Abr 3, 2022, 10:14 am

There is a danger run by all powerless people: that we forget we are lying, or that lying becomes a weapon we carry over into relationships with people who do not have power over us.

Adrienne Rich, Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying

81Jesse_wiedinmyer
Abr 5, 2022, 8:33 am

Yeah.

Whatevs.

82Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Abr 12, 2022, 9:37 pm

Group admin has hidden this message. (mostre)
>rephrase your experience so we can understand it as trauma

I now take my response to this one step further, and say that your request that I do so is a form of victim blaming, suggesting that unless I indicate my displeasure in socially accepted modes, my right to bodily autonomy is not a presumed assumption.

83MrLuck
Editado: Abr 13, 2022, 3:26 am

Group admin has removed this message.

84susanbooks
Editado: Abr 13, 2022, 5:29 pm

No, what I'm saying is, your right to be responded to in an empathetic, respectful manner is dependent on your acting like a grown-up, realizing you bull-dozed through a serious, woman-dominated thread with your antics, making everything about you, you, you. I don't care about Harris. I can't stand her. I do care about women's spaces being invaded by repetitive, dominating male voices. And stop private messaging me. We aren't friends. I have nothing to say to you in private.

No one's questioning your right to bodily autonomy. I don't know why you conflate that with your right to destroy this thread.

85LolaWalser
Abr 13, 2022, 8:55 pm

Without implying that the experiences of famous white women are the standard for discrimination, I found this article interesting for highlighting how persistent the injustice may be, and with what specific difficulties, even in such a would-be "gender utopia" like Sweden:

‘I suffered for my rage’: Sofia Helin on Lust, The Bridge and the collapse of Sweden’s #MeToo movement

86Jesse_wiedinmyer
Editado: Abr 18, 2022, 10:23 pm

Group admin has hidden this message. (mostre)
No one's questioning your right to bodily autonomy. I don't know why you conflate that with your right to destroy this thread

How does my speaking about my right to bodily autonomy and integrity destroy this thread?

I'd assume it would only serve to strengthen it.

And stop private messaging me. We aren't friends. I have nothing to say to you in private.

As noted elsewhere, I'm rather fond of boundaries. Even if mine aren't respected. De nada.

Adira para publicar