Women deacons
Original topic subject: Women deacons report
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2hf22
That is a nasty and ill informed attack on Pope Francis by the ideologues at Wijngaards. They might need to listen harder to advice the Pope gave at his audience with the UISG.
And people concerned with the practical and pastoral opportunities for women, rather than stalking horses for other things, would be well advised to look to what hasn't been effectively ruled out. A restored separate order of deaconesses, while not Holy Orders, would achieve a great deal.
And people concerned with the practical and pastoral opportunities for women, rather than stalking horses for other things, would be well advised to look to what hasn't been effectively ruled out. A restored separate order of deaconesses, while not Holy Orders, would achieve a great deal.
3John5918
>2 hf22:
Well, whether you agree with him or not, one thing I can say about Hans Wijngaards is that he is rarely ill-informed!
Well, whether you agree with him or not, one thing I can say about Hans Wijngaards is that he is rarely ill-informed!
4hf22
>3 John5918:
Their ideology is blinding them to the historical complexity Pope Francis has noted, with the backing of two Vatican Commissions, both of which included scholars who seek the sacramental ordination of deaconesses. So yes, ill informed, and nasty.
Pope Francis deserves better engagement than that, especially from those who want to be treated as scholars.
Their ideology is blinding them to the historical complexity Pope Francis has noted, with the backing of two Vatican Commissions, both of which included scholars who seek the sacramental ordination of deaconesses. So yes, ill informed, and nasty.
Pope Francis deserves better engagement than that, especially from those who want to be treated as scholars.
5John5918
>3 John5918:
Well, I've never known Hans to be ill-informed or nasty, and I think his scholarship speaks for itself. Are you not being just a little uncharitable?
Well, I've never known Hans to be ill-informed or nasty, and I think his scholarship speaks for itself. Are you not being just a little uncharitable?
6hf22
>5 John5918:
I don't think sneering condescension is an appropriate way to engage with a teaching of the Holy Father, nor with the two commissions of scholars on which the Pope's comments were based.
There is no virtue in excusing such nasty, and indeed uncharitable, attacks.
I don't think sneering condescension is an appropriate way to engage with a teaching of the Holy Father, nor with the two commissions of scholars on which the Pope's comments were based.
There is no virtue in excusing such nasty, and indeed uncharitable, attacks.
8hf22
>8 hf22:
If you think it is charitable to suggest the only reasons the Pope and his (50% female) scholarly commission doesn't agree with Wijngaards is that they didn't read basic bits of evidence and have a phobia of menstruation, then I'd hate to see your version of uncharitable.
If you think it is charitable to suggest the only reasons the Pope and his (50% female) scholarly commission doesn't agree with Wijngaards is that they didn't read basic bits of evidence and have a phobia of menstruation, then I'd hate to see your version of uncharitable.
11John5918
Pope creates new expert commission to study women deacons (Crux)
Pope Francis has created a new commission of experts to examine whether women can be deacons, an ordained role in the Catholic Church currently reserved for men.
The 10-member commission, the second of Francis’ pontificate to study the fraught issue, includes equal numbers of men and women representing the United States and six European countries...
Married men can be ordained as deacons. Women cannot, though historians say women served as deacons in the early Christian church.
In response to women demanding to be given greater roles in the 21st century, Francis established a commission in 2016 to study female deacons in the early Christian church. But the members failed to reach a consensus and the group effectively ended its work.
The issue was revived during Francis’s 2019 summit on the Amazon. The region’s bishops called for the question of women deacons to be revisited given the shortage or priests in the vast territory. Francis agreed at the time, and the new commission appears to be his follow-up.
Significantly, the scope of the commission’s mandate does not appear to be limited to the early church, as was the 2016 commission. Amazonian bishops had called for the real-life experiences of their region’s Catholic faithful to be taken into consideration in any new evaluation...
Pope Francis establishes new commission to study women deacons (Catholic Herald)
Pope Francis has created a new commission of experts to examine whether women can be deacons, an ordained role in the Catholic Church currently reserved for men.
The 10-member commission, the second of Francis’ pontificate to study the fraught issue, includes equal numbers of men and women representing the United States and six European countries...
Married men can be ordained as deacons. Women cannot, though historians say women served as deacons in the early Christian church.
In response to women demanding to be given greater roles in the 21st century, Francis established a commission in 2016 to study female deacons in the early Christian church. But the members failed to reach a consensus and the group effectively ended its work.
The issue was revived during Francis’s 2019 summit on the Amazon. The region’s bishops called for the question of women deacons to be revisited given the shortage or priests in the vast territory. Francis agreed at the time, and the new commission appears to be his follow-up.
Significantly, the scope of the commission’s mandate does not appear to be limited to the early church, as was the 2016 commission. Amazonian bishops had called for the real-life experiences of their region’s Catholic faithful to be taken into consideration in any new evaluation...
Pope Francis establishes new commission to study women deacons (Catholic Herald)
12John5918
Why Pope Francis should restore the full ancient diaconate of women (The Tablet)
A well argued piece by my old colleague John Wijngaards looking at evidence for the diaconal ordination of women, and at St Bonaventure's thoughts on the issue.
A well argued piece by my old colleague John Wijngaards looking at evidence for the diaconal ordination of women, and at St Bonaventure's thoughts on the issue.
13hf22
>12 John5918:
It seems to me Wijngaards merely assumes his conclusions into his premises (i.e. that deaconesses were part of Holy Orders), while being condescending to the Pope and the numerous scholars on the papal commission who disagree with him. Not to mention his attempt to smear Pope Francis with discredited ideas about female inferiority, which haven't figured in the rejection of female clergy by Popes Paul VI, John Paul II or Francis.
Is he entirely incapable of writing something on this topic which isn't sneering, nasty and uncharitable?
It seems to me Wijngaards merely assumes his conclusions into his premises (i.e. that deaconesses were part of Holy Orders), while being condescending to the Pope and the numerous scholars on the papal commission who disagree with him. Not to mention his attempt to smear Pope Francis with discredited ideas about female inferiority, which haven't figured in the rejection of female clergy by Popes Paul VI, John Paul II or Francis.
Is he entirely incapable of writing something on this topic which isn't sneering, nasty and uncharitable?
14John5918
>13 hf22:
Interesting that you should project "sneering, nasty and uncharitable" onto Wijngaards. I have always found him to be precisely the opposite, a man of great humility. He is a scholar, and as such is at liberty to disagree with other scholars.
Interesting that you should project "sneering, nasty and uncharitable" onto Wijngaards. I have always found him to be precisely the opposite, a man of great humility. He is a scholar, and as such is at liberty to disagree with other scholars.
15hf22
>14 John5918:
His smearing of Pope Francis, by trying to associate the Pope with ideas like "Men surpass women physically and intellectually", is so deeply offensive that I struggle to see how you can say that with a straight face.
Lets turn it around and see if it becomes obvious. Say someone else said Wijngaards sometimes sounds like Jean Vanier or David Haas in the way he approaches his topic, such that it brings to mind the recent revelations of their spiritual and sexual abuse of women, and what else they might share in common.
You get how vile that would be? Because that is basically the rhetorical trick Wijngaards just used in relation to the Holy Father.
His smearing of Pope Francis, by trying to associate the Pope with ideas like "Men surpass women physically and intellectually", is so deeply offensive that I struggle to see how you can say that with a straight face.
Lets turn it around and see if it becomes obvious. Say someone else said Wijngaards sometimes sounds like Jean Vanier or David Haas in the way he approaches his topic, such that it brings to mind the recent revelations of their spiritual and sexual abuse of women, and what else they might share in common.
You get how vile that would be? Because that is basically the rhetorical trick Wijngaards just used in relation to the Holy Father.
16John5918
>15 hf22:
Your analogy is so contrived as to be meaningless. To observe, based on his words, writings and actions, in the context of women's ordination that Pope Francis exhibits a degree of paternalism, an observation that could be made about many male church leaders and indeed arguably St Bonaventure, is not a "smear" and is certainly not on the same level as suggesting that someone has carried out spiritual and sexual abuse because he "sounds like" someone else. Anyway, does Francis "sound like" Vanier or Haas, and even if he does, it is relevant? Incidentally I had to look up David Haas. Never heard of the chap before.
Your analogy is so contrived as to be meaningless. To observe, based on his words, writings and actions, in the context of women's ordination that Pope Francis exhibits a degree of paternalism, an observation that could be made about many male church leaders and indeed arguably St Bonaventure, is not a "smear" and is certainly not on the same level as suggesting that someone has carried out spiritual and sexual abuse because he "sounds like" someone else. Anyway, does Francis "sound like" Vanier or Haas, and even if he does, it is relevant? Incidentally I had to look up David Haas. Never heard of the chap before.
17hf22
>16 John5918:
Contrived? I pretty much just changed the names! Didn't even change the topic really, given the made up Bonaventure passage would if used today be spiritual abuse of women (and I must say dismissing the attributed attitude as a "degree of paternalism" smacks of very serious misogyny in itself).
But I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Contrived? I pretty much just changed the names! Didn't even change the topic really, given the made up Bonaventure passage would if used today be spiritual abuse of women (and I must say dismissing the attributed attitude as a "degree of paternalism" smacks of very serious misogyny in itself).
But I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see.
18John5918
>17 hf22:
I've just realised we had a similar inconclusive conversation on this same thread a while ago. It seems you don't like Wijngaards, and you are unusually sensitive to even mild criticism of Francis. I like both Wijngaards and Francis (the latter only from a distance, of course - I've never had the opportunity to meet a pope) and I'm sure they both have their flaws like all of us, though I'm not sure that Wijngaards flaws include the ones you attribute to him.
I've just realised we had a similar inconclusive conversation on this same thread a while ago. It seems you don't like Wijngaards, and you are unusually sensitive to even mild criticism of Francis. I like both Wijngaards and Francis (the latter only from a distance, of course - I've never had the opportunity to meet a pope) and I'm sure they both have their flaws like all of us, though I'm not sure that Wijngaards flaws include the ones you attribute to him.
19hf22
>18 John5918:
I don't know Wijngaards from a bar of soap, so I can't speak to his flaws. What I can judge is his articles which you have posted with approval, and they are sneering, nasty and uncharitable.
And no, I don't think suggesting the Pope believes women are inferior is a mild criticism. I think such a belief being held by a modern Pope would be monstrous and potentially disqualifying.
I don't know Wijngaards from a bar of soap, so I can't speak to his flaws. What I can judge is his articles which you have posted with approval, and they are sneering, nasty and uncharitable.
And no, I don't think suggesting the Pope believes women are inferior is a mild criticism. I think such a belief being held by a modern Pope would be monstrous and potentially disqualifying.
20John5918
>19 hf22:
Ah well, as usual, we have to agree to disagree. I judge Wijngaards' articles to be a constructive contribution to an ongoing conversation on an important issue, and far from "sneering, nasty and uncharitable".
Ah well, as usual, we have to agree to disagree. I judge Wijngaards' articles to be a constructive contribution to an ongoing conversation on an important issue, and far from "sneering, nasty and uncharitable".
21John5918
This one is about women priests, not deacons. I had not come across this before. Does anyone know more?
Pope John Paul II's apostolic letter on the same subject, Ordinatio sacerdotalis... ends up defining a doctrine that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women". Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, CDF prefect at the time, attempted to make the pope's document infallible, by claiming that "the Church has always possessed this doctrine". But this cannot be the truth. If it were, Pope Pius XII could not have authorized the ordination of women, which he did during the persecution of the Church in Czechoslovakia when the communists were hunting priests and keeping single men under close surveillance...
Source: Should we be celebrating? (La Croix)
Pope John Paul II's apostolic letter on the same subject, Ordinatio sacerdotalis... ends up defining a doctrine that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women". Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, CDF prefect at the time, attempted to make the pope's document infallible, by claiming that "the Church has always possessed this doctrine". But this cannot be the truth. If it were, Pope Pius XII could not have authorized the ordination of women, which he did during the persecution of the Church in Czechoslovakia when the communists were hunting priests and keeping single men under close surveillance...
Source: Should we be celebrating? (La Croix)
22hf22
>21 John5918:
Yeah, it isn't true.
There were some permissions for secret ordinations of men, but it ended up in a big mess. One Bishop who wasn't all there, Felix Davidek, purported to ordain some women. But he also didn't even manage to validly ordain some of the men he attempted to commission, which tells you how much value that has (http://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2000a/022500/022500f.htm).
But it is certainly false to attribute any permission to ordain women to Pius XII, and thus this incident can't be used against John Paul II's definitive teaching.
Yeah, it isn't true.
There were some permissions for secret ordinations of men, but it ended up in a big mess. One Bishop who wasn't all there, Felix Davidek, purported to ordain some women. But he also didn't even manage to validly ordain some of the men he attempted to commission, which tells you how much value that has (http://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2000a/022500/022500f.htm).
But it is certainly false to attribute any permission to ordain women to Pius XII, and thus this incident can't be used against John Paul II's definitive teaching.
24John5918
She was an early church deacon. Catholic women now want to reclaim her example (NCR)
pilgrims from four countries gathered in Mexico City at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe to celebrate St. Phoebe's feast day. In the presence of an archbishop, several priests and nuns and a host of Catholic lay women, the pilgrims honored the little-known saint who makes a solitary appearance in the New Testament's Letter to the Romans as an associate of St. Paul and a female deacon of the early church... "Phoebe represents hope and evidence that women have been in service to the church since the beginning... This isn't new. It makes me feel that it can happen in the future"...
25brone
The non catholic reporter wants it now rather than in the future....AMDG....Queen of Martyrs Pray for Us.
26brone
Phebe may or may not have been a deaconess of the church, formal recognition as an institution of consecrated women is not found anywhere in the New Testament.Phebe (Rom; XVI, 1) is called diakonos but this simply means, as the vulgate renders it, that she was in the ministry of the service of the church....AMDG....Queen of Virgins Pray for Us.
27John5918
Pope Francis on Women Deacons: "Holy orders is reserved for men" (ACI Africa)
Pope Francis reaffirmed the impossibility of women becoming priests, or even modern Church deacons, in an interview for a book released Tuesday in Italy. The question of whether some women in the early Church were “deaconesses” or another kind of collaborator with the bishops is “not irrelevant, because holy orders is reserved for men,” the pope said... About the possibility of women deacons, Francis pointed out that the diaconate “is the first degree of holy orders in the Catholic Church, followed by the priesthood and finally the episcopate.” He said he formed commissions in 2016 and 2020 to study the question further, after a study in the 1980s by the International Theological Commission established that the role of deaconesses in the early Church “was comparable to the benedictions of abbesses.” In response to a question about why he is “against female priesthood,” Francis told Argentine journalist Sergio Rubin and Italian journalist Francesca Ambrogetti, the authors of the book, that it is “a theological problem.” “I think we would undermine the essence of the Church if we considered only the priestly ministry, that is, the ministerial way,” he said, pointing out that women mirror Jesus’ bride the Church. “The fact that the woman does not access ministerial life is not a deprivation, because her place is much more important,” he said. “I think we err in our catechesis in explaining these things, and ultimately we fall back on an administrative criterion that does not work in the long run.” “On the other hand, with respect to the charism of women, I want to say very clearly that from my personal experience, they have a great ecclesial intuition,” he said...
28John5918
It is time the Church recognised there is no justification to continue the ban on women’s ministry (Tablet)
Full disclosure: the author is an old colleague of mine. He is a well known expert on scripture.
The Pontifical Biblical Commission concluded in 1975 that the ordination of women could not be validly excluded on the basis of Scripture... Meanwhile commission member Cipriano Vagaggini published an article in Orientalia Christiana Periodica in 1974 concluding that the ordination of women deacons in the early church was sacramental. What the church had done in the past, he suggested, the church may do again. In 1997 the International Theological Commission actually confirmed what Vagaggini had stated earlier: history supports the argument that women could be sacramentally ordained...
Full disclosure: the author is an old colleague of mine. He is a well known expert on scripture.
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