When/if should communion be denied to a communicant?
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1John5918
Michigan Catholic Priest Refuses To Offer Communion To Married Lesbian Judge (Huffington Post)
Critics of Rev. Scott Nolan argue that LGBTQ Catholics like Sara Smolenski are being singled out by priests, while other Catholics who contradict key teachings ― on the death penalty, for example ― don’t receive the same level of scrutiny...
Just last month, former Vice President Joe Biden was denied communion at a South Carolina Catholic church over his support for abortion rights...
the example of El Salvador’s St. Oscar Romero, whom she said offered communion to members of paramilitary squads, to government officials, and to the people who were victims of both groups during a period of heated civil conflict. Romero had the humility not to place himself in the way of God...
Some have argued that LGBTQ parishioners are being unfairly singled out, while other Catholics who publicly or privately contradict key church teachings ― on topics like the death penalty, environmental justice and welcoming the stranger ― don’t receive the same level of scrutiny.
In the U.S., the reasons a Catholic priest gives for denying someone communion are almost exclusively about sex and gender, according to Lisa Sowle Cahill, a theology professor at Boston College. While Pope Francis hasn’t changed official church teaching, he has urged Catholics to stop making that set of issues their main priority and instead pay more attention to poverty and the environment. He’s also made an example of welcoming and reaching out to LGBTQ individuals, she said.
“Excommunicating a faithful, long-term parishioner because she is in a same-sex marriage does not seem to fit this trend, nor will it attract or retain the majority of Americans and Catholics who favor the availability of same-sex marriage,” Cahill told HuffPost. “However, some Catholic leaders are more interested in winning the culture wars”...
Bolstered by bad eucharistic theology, the 'wafer wars' are back (National Catholic Reporter)
Ugh. The "wafer wars" are back. Nothing so exemplifies the culture warrior approach as the denial of the Eucharist to pro-choice politicians...
Critics of Rev. Scott Nolan argue that LGBTQ Catholics like Sara Smolenski are being singled out by priests, while other Catholics who contradict key teachings ― on the death penalty, for example ― don’t receive the same level of scrutiny...
Just last month, former Vice President Joe Biden was denied communion at a South Carolina Catholic church over his support for abortion rights...
the example of El Salvador’s St. Oscar Romero, whom she said offered communion to members of paramilitary squads, to government officials, and to the people who were victims of both groups during a period of heated civil conflict. Romero had the humility not to place himself in the way of God...
Some have argued that LGBTQ parishioners are being unfairly singled out, while other Catholics who publicly or privately contradict key church teachings ― on topics like the death penalty, environmental justice and welcoming the stranger ― don’t receive the same level of scrutiny.
In the U.S., the reasons a Catholic priest gives for denying someone communion are almost exclusively about sex and gender, according to Lisa Sowle Cahill, a theology professor at Boston College. While Pope Francis hasn’t changed official church teaching, he has urged Catholics to stop making that set of issues their main priority and instead pay more attention to poverty and the environment. He’s also made an example of welcoming and reaching out to LGBTQ individuals, she said.
“Excommunicating a faithful, long-term parishioner because she is in a same-sex marriage does not seem to fit this trend, nor will it attract or retain the majority of Americans and Catholics who favor the availability of same-sex marriage,” Cahill told HuffPost. “However, some Catholic leaders are more interested in winning the culture wars”...
Bolstered by bad eucharistic theology, the 'wafer wars' are back (National Catholic Reporter)
Ugh. The "wafer wars" are back. Nothing so exemplifies the culture warrior approach as the denial of the Eucharist to pro-choice politicians...
2hf22
In answer to the title question, one might be well served to see Pope Francis' actual answer, which he gives in Amoris laetitia 297:
“Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17)”.
And similarly in Amoris laetitia 300, where he provides guidance on where they may be permitted without the risk of scandal which Canon 915 is intended to guard against (c/f AL 299):
“When a responsible and tactful person, who does not presume to put his or her own desires ahead of the common good of the Church, meets with a pastor capable of acknowledging the seriousness of the matter before him, there can be no risk that a specific discernment may lead people to think that the Church maintains a double standard”.
“Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17)”.
And similarly in Amoris laetitia 300, where he provides guidance on where they may be permitted without the risk of scandal which Canon 915 is intended to guard against (c/f AL 299):
“When a responsible and tactful person, who does not presume to put his or her own desires ahead of the common good of the Church, meets with a pastor capable of acknowledging the seriousness of the matter before him, there can be no risk that a specific discernment may lead people to think that the Church maintains a double standard”.
3John5918
>2 hf22:
Indeed. But the question is perhaps how does the pastor choose which objective sins? People often suspect a "double standard" when they see the pastor apparently taking sides in a "culture war" rather than discerning "the common good of the Church".
Indeed. But the question is perhaps how does the pastor choose which objective sins? People often suspect a "double standard" when they see the pastor apparently taking sides in a "culture war" rather than discerning "the common good of the Church".
4margd
I've only seen one person turned away--a young black man, whose mom was right behind him, and she was livid. I remember hearing later that the Eucharistic minister thought she saw the (teenager?) tuck away and not consume the wafer. Apparently wafers had been found discarded in parking lot? Anyway, it was then a largely white parish, and I never again noticed them at Mass.
One of my sons has recently attached himself to a small Apostolic church that doesn't "do" the Eucharist. He mentioned that his (previously divorced) dad and I don't either.
But, hey, at least the Communion 'rail' is kept pure...
(Except for a white colleague, a regular Protestant churchgoer, who presented himself at an RC funeral.)
One of my sons has recently attached himself to a small Apostolic church that doesn't "do" the Eucharist. He mentioned that his (previously divorced) dad and I don't either.
But, hey, at least the Communion 'rail' is kept pure...
(Except for a white colleague, a regular Protestant churchgoer, who presented himself at an RC funeral.)
5hf22
>3 John5918:
Culture war vs discernment is a false dilemma, since the things currently at issue in society are those most likely to cause scandal.
Should sins against migrants, the poor, the environment, the unborn or marriage be left alone because they are the political/cultural issues de jure? I don't think anyone really believes that.
Beyond that, the Church gets to pick priorities over time, even if they aren't the ones I'd pick. There isn't an objective standard against which to measure emphasis and priorities.
Culture war vs discernment is a false dilemma, since the things currently at issue in society are those most likely to cause scandal.
Should sins against migrants, the poor, the environment, the unborn or marriage be left alone because they are the political/cultural issues de jure? I don't think anyone really believes that.
Beyond that, the Church gets to pick priorities over time, even if they aren't the ones I'd pick. There isn't an objective standard against which to measure emphasis and priorities.
6gabriel
Was the white colleague known to be non-Catholic by the presiding priest? It's very difficult for priests to know who is non-Catholic, especially outside of a normal parish setting. At my wedding, a Protestant aunt presented herself for communion despite both an announcement from the pulpit and a note in the wedding programme. Unless the person looks like they don't know what they're doing, it's very hard for a priest to prevent such people from receiving. You just have to hope & pray it won't have any negative consequences for non-catholic communicants.
The example of the young black man sounds bad. Not sure I understand what happened - did the EM see him tuck away the Eucharist at a previous occasion? If so, the time to deal with that is when it happens the first time.
If any parish is finding the Eucharist discarded... well, I think you should make a norm that the Eucharist be received on the tongue (perhaps an exception could be made for regular parishioners who are attached to receiving in the hand). Profanation is a serious matter, both in terms of honouring Christ himself, and in the gravity of the sin for those who commit it.
The example of the young black man sounds bad. Not sure I understand what happened - did the EM see him tuck away the Eucharist at a previous occasion? If so, the time to deal with that is when it happens the first time.
If any parish is finding the Eucharist discarded... well, I think you should make a norm that the Eucharist be received on the tongue (perhaps an exception could be made for regular parishioners who are attached to receiving in the hand). Profanation is a serious matter, both in terms of honouring Christ himself, and in the gravity of the sin for those who commit it.
7LesMiserables
Any public unrepentant sinner.
9LesMiserables
No. Abortionists, Contraceptors, Drunkards, Communists etc
10John5918
>9 LesMiserables:
Is communism a sin or a political viewpoint? Is alcoholism a sin or a disease? But certainly those who oppress the poor are sinners.
Is communism a sin or a political viewpoint? Is alcoholism a sin or a disease? But certainly those who oppress the poor are sinners.
11John5918
Incidentally, I'd be interested to hear other people's views on the fact that the Eucharist is not a reward for being good but a source of grace to help us to be good, as we are all sinners. The image of the Church as a "field hospital", as Francis puts it.
12LesMiserables
10. Communism a sin? Yes.
Alcoholism is different from drunkenness.
Alcoholism is different from drunkenness.
14LesMiserables
God has written this in our hearts in natural law.
Communism secondly is atheistic.
Communism secondly is atheistic.
15John5918
>14 LesMiserables:
Good grief. What does natural law have to do with communism? In fact Catholic Social Teaching on the common good has more in common with communism than with most other political philosophies.
A particular incarnation of communism has indeed been atheistic, but there are forms of socialism/communism which are not automatically atheistic.
Good grief. What does natural law have to do with communism? In fact Catholic Social Teaching on the common good has more in common with communism than with most other political philosophies.
A particular incarnation of communism has indeed been atheistic, but there are forms of socialism/communism which are not automatically atheistic.
16LesMiserables
Natural law has nothing to do with communism, that's my point.
17hf22
>11 John5918:
The nature of a powerful medicine is that it will not be beneficial in all circumstances - Indeed its very potency makes it dangerous when misapplied. And so just as we wouldn't advise chemotherapy for a stroke victim, nor do we advise the Eucharist to a person in a state of subjective mortal sin.
It is also worth noting the actual denial of Communion under Canon 915 has nothing to do with either side of that equation (which is covered by Canon 916 and only applied by the individual in conscience). Canon 915 considers the Eucharist in its communal aspect, not its individualist one. The patient it focuses on is not the prospective communicant, but the others in the pews who will be separated from God if they perceive the Church to condone evil.
The young person of colour who will leave the Church in disgust when they see the public racist being honoured as in good standing. The person struggling with disordered desires, who falls, because why bother if even the Church doesn't really care.
And if our "field hospital" ignores those people, perhaps dismisses them because they should be strong enough not to be scandalised, then I don't think it would be much of a hospital at all. A comfortable and self-satisfied country club perhaps, but not a field hospital.
The nature of a powerful medicine is that it will not be beneficial in all circumstances - Indeed its very potency makes it dangerous when misapplied. And so just as we wouldn't advise chemotherapy for a stroke victim, nor do we advise the Eucharist to a person in a state of subjective mortal sin.
It is also worth noting the actual denial of Communion under Canon 915 has nothing to do with either side of that equation (which is covered by Canon 916 and only applied by the individual in conscience). Canon 915 considers the Eucharist in its communal aspect, not its individualist one. The patient it focuses on is not the prospective communicant, but the others in the pews who will be separated from God if they perceive the Church to condone evil.
The young person of colour who will leave the Church in disgust when they see the public racist being honoured as in good standing. The person struggling with disordered desires, who falls, because why bother if even the Church doesn't really care.
And if our "field hospital" ignores those people, perhaps dismisses them because they should be strong enough not to be scandalised, then I don't think it would be much of a hospital at all. A comfortable and self-satisfied country club perhaps, but not a field hospital.
18John5918
>17 hf22:
Well, in some ways you are making the same point that was made earlier in this thread. If parishioners see that only people who can be connected with something sexual are being denied communion while racists and oppressors are welcomed, that indeed creates a scandal. On the other hand, if parishioners see that anyone who sincerely feels that they need the Eucharist is welcomed, that is a concrete demonstration of the abundant grace and mercy of God which transcends our limited human understanding of mercy.
Well, in some ways you are making the same point that was made earlier in this thread. If parishioners see that only people who can be connected with something sexual are being denied communion while racists and oppressors are welcomed, that indeed creates a scandal. On the other hand, if parishioners see that anyone who sincerely feels that they need the Eucharist is welcomed, that is a concrete demonstration of the abundant grace and mercy of God which transcends our limited human understanding of mercy.
19John5918
>11 John5918:, >17 hf22:
Coincidentally, the field hospital metaphor appeared in today's Crux:
Experts say pope’s metaphor of a ‘field hospital’ has special punch for Africa
According to a range of scholars at a Pan-African Congress on Theology, Pastoral Life, and Society, the pope’s metaphor for the Church as a “field hospital” provides particular resonance for the African continent - and, they say, must guide pastoral practice in the realms of education, liturgy, and the laity... delegates relied on the pope’s metaphor to cast a vision of a church in Africa that encourages a reshaping of their ministries and programs more closely modeled after the pontiff’s method of dealing with a wounded flock... the pope’s vision of a field hospital must focus on “pastoral care in concrete situations”...
My own post #35 in the Amazon Synod LT thread also comments on the concrete pastoral situation in Africa.
Coincidentally, the field hospital metaphor appeared in today's Crux:
Experts say pope’s metaphor of a ‘field hospital’ has special punch for Africa
According to a range of scholars at a Pan-African Congress on Theology, Pastoral Life, and Society, the pope’s metaphor for the Church as a “field hospital” provides particular resonance for the African continent - and, they say, must guide pastoral practice in the realms of education, liturgy, and the laity... delegates relied on the pope’s metaphor to cast a vision of a church in Africa that encourages a reshaping of their ministries and programs more closely modeled after the pontiff’s method of dealing with a wounded flock... the pope’s vision of a field hospital must focus on “pastoral care in concrete situations”...
My own post #35 in the Amazon Synod LT thread also comments on the concrete pastoral situation in Africa.
20hf22
>17 hf22:
And if public racists sincerely feel they need the Eucharist, but don't see any need to repent from their oppression?
Is mercy for the racist more important than compassion for his victims and their ongoing suffering? Because if it is, we don't ever get to call ourselves prophetic ever again.
And if public racists sincerely feel they need the Eucharist, but don't see any need to repent from their oppression?
Is mercy for the racist more important than compassion for his victims and their ongoing suffering? Because if it is, we don't ever get to call ourselves prophetic ever again.
21John5918
>20 hf22:
Most of these pastoral cases have to be handled on an individual basis by a pastor who cares about the victim and the oppressor. They should not be handled as part of a culture war.
Ah, the prophetic role of the Church. Is it about punishing individuals or is it about speaking out on issues of injustice and imagining a different future? I find Walter Brueggemann's The Prophetic Imagination to be an excellent book on the topic.
Most of these pastoral cases have to be handled on an individual basis by a pastor who cares about the victim and the oppressor. They should not be handled as part of a culture war.
Ah, the prophetic role of the Church. Is it about punishing individuals or is it about speaking out on issues of injustice and imagining a different future? I find Walter Brueggemann's The Prophetic Imagination to be an excellent book on the topic.
22hf22
>21 John5918:
That a pastor has to deal with these questions, doesn't eliminate the issue. Pope Francis affirms a pastor needs to discern each application in the concrete, but equally affirms that discernment may require Communion to be denied.
So we can falsely pretend it is a punishment, or we can face the actual pastoral wisdom embodied in this discipline, as expounded by Pope Francis.
And we really need to put aside hypocritical binaries like "I speak prophetically about injustice, you prosecute a culture war", since they tend to be the same thing (one done by our side, the other by those viewed as partisan opponents). It is uncharitable, corrosive and ultimately unchristian.
That a pastor has to deal with these questions, doesn't eliminate the issue. Pope Francis affirms a pastor needs to discern each application in the concrete, but equally affirms that discernment may require Communion to be denied.
So we can falsely pretend it is a punishment, or we can face the actual pastoral wisdom embodied in this discipline, as expounded by Pope Francis.
And we really need to put aside hypocritical binaries like "I speak prophetically about injustice, you prosecute a culture war", since they tend to be the same thing (one done by our side, the other by those viewed as partisan opponents). It is uncharitable, corrosive and ultimately unchristian.
23LesMiserables
JTF...
You must remember that denying communion to a public sinner of grave deeds is an act of mercy.
There is a double abomination of compound mortal sin at work here, when the Eucharist is received in a state of mortal sin.
You must remember that denying communion to a public sinner of grave deeds is an act of mercy.
There is a double abomination of compound mortal sin at work here, when the Eucharist is received in a state of mortal sin.
242wonderY
I point out that in the Synoptic gospels, Jesus merely tells his disciples to eat the bread/body and drink the wine/blood, without conditions. In Matthew and Mark, the sequence is that Jesus declares that one of them will betray him during the meal and then goes on to the bread and wine blessing and distribution. In Luke, the betrayal conversation is after the blessing and distribution. John's version has the washing of the feet after the meal and then the betrayal conversation.
So, did Judas participate? Did he consume the bread and wine?
So, did Judas participate? Did he consume the bread and wine?
25hf22
>24 2wonderY:
I assume Judas participated, but it doesn't seem relevant to me, nor has the Church traditionally seen it to be. Prospective sins known only to God's foreknowledge aren't really what either set of restrictions the Church lays down are about.
And in terms of the Scriptural basis for having these restrictions, we really need to look at 1 Corinthians 11:17-31. That passage underlines both the communal concerns on which Canon 915 is based (in the first part) and the individual concerns on which Canon 916 is based (in the later part).
I assume Judas participated, but it doesn't seem relevant to me, nor has the Church traditionally seen it to be. Prospective sins known only to God's foreknowledge aren't really what either set of restrictions the Church lays down are about.
And in terms of the Scriptural basis for having these restrictions, we really need to look at 1 Corinthians 11:17-31. That passage underlines both the communal concerns on which Canon 915 is based (in the first part) and the individual concerns on which Canon 916 is based (in the later part).
262wonderY
1 Corinthians 11:17-31
17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.
17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.
27John5918
>23 LesMiserables: There is a double abomination of compound mortal sin at work here, when the Eucharist is received in a state of mortal sin.
If a person sincerely believes that they are entitled to receive communion, then it is unlikely that it is a mortal sin, as that would require full knowledge and intent, which would be lacking in this case.
If a person sincerely believes that they are entitled to receive communion, then it is unlikely that it is a mortal sin, as that would require full knowledge and intent, which would be lacking in this case.
30LesMiserables
29
The Mercy Cheerleaders conveniently forget that Hell exists, and for a reason.
The Mercy Cheerleaders conveniently forget that Hell exists, and for a reason.
32LesMiserables
Evidence? Our Lord was fairly clear on this one.
33John5918
>30 LesMiserables:
"Mercy Cheerleaders" is unworthy of you. God's mercy certainly surpasses anything you or I can imagine, and hell has little to do with this particular conversation.
Have you read Walter Kaspar's book on Mercy? It's excellent.
"Mercy Cheerleaders" is unworthy of you. God's mercy certainly surpasses anything you or I can imagine, and hell has little to do with this particular conversation.
Have you read Walter Kaspar's book on Mercy? It's excellent.
34LesMiserables
33.
Yes it's rubbish. When a Cardinal tells you to temper your Marian devotion, well...
Yes it's rubbish. When a Cardinal tells you to temper your Marian devotion, well...
35John5918
Not directly relevant, perhaps, as he is talking about pastoral accompaniment rather than communion, but still an important contribution to any conversation on mercy, and pastoral care of sinners (ie of all of us).
Vatican official: I’d ‘hold hand’ of person dying from assisted suicide (Crux)
A leading Vatican official says he would “hold the hand” of someone who was dying from assisted suicide, even though he considers it wrong, because “no one is abandoned” by the Church... “I believe that from our perspective, no one is abandoned, even if we are against assisted suicide..."
No one is abandoned.
Vatican official: I’d ‘hold hand’ of person dying from assisted suicide (Crux)
A leading Vatican official says he would “hold the hand” of someone who was dying from assisted suicide, even though he considers it wrong, because “no one is abandoned” by the Church... “I believe that from our perspective, no one is abandoned, even if we are against assisted suicide..."
No one is abandoned.
36hf22
>35 John5918:
People say things like this, but it always seems somewhat detached from the pastoral realities in most cases.
How many people, who have decided to kill themselves, actually want a priest trying to talk them out of it the whole time? Even if that is done without words and only with presence?
I'm all for never giving up on anyone, but compassion in the concrete is much harder than these trite soundbites.
People say things like this, but it always seems somewhat detached from the pastoral realities in most cases.
How many people, who have decided to kill themselves, actually want a priest trying to talk them out of it the whole time? Even if that is done without words and only with presence?
I'm all for never giving up on anyone, but compassion in the concrete is much harder than these trite soundbites.
37John5918
>36 hf22:
It looks as if you have quite a jaundiced view of human nature. I prefer to take the good archbishop at face value and see it as a genuine expression of pastoral concern rather than a "trite soundbite". You might be surprised at some of the "unlikely" pastoral scenarios which priests (and Cathilic laity) have to face, with compassion.
It looks as if you have quite a jaundiced view of human nature. I prefer to take the good archbishop at face value and see it as a genuine expression of pastoral concern rather than a "trite soundbite". You might be surprised at some of the "unlikely" pastoral scenarios which priests (and Cathilic laity) have to face, with compassion.
38hf22
>37 John5918:
I'm saying it is too abstract, while pretending to attend to concrete reality. A criticism Pope Francis has made of much the Church's pastoral verbiage as well if you might recall.
I'm saying it is too abstract, while pretending to attend to concrete reality. A criticism Pope Francis has made of much the Church's pastoral verbiage as well if you might recall.
39LesMiserables
38.
This Pope has a track record of appealing from the extremities to argue the point. Add in the usual rhetorical bluster with a healthy dose of modernist ambiguity, and we have the recipe from hell.
This Pope has a track record of appealing from the extremities to argue the point. Add in the usual rhetorical bluster with a healthy dose of modernist ambiguity, and we have the recipe from hell.
40John5918
>39 LesMiserables: This Pope has a track record of appealing from the extremities to argue the point...
No, but not being from the Global North he has a different perception of what is an "extremity" and what is "normal". The pampered Global North is not the norm in the world, and examples such as the Amazon are not extremities.
No, but not being from the Global North he has a different perception of what is an "extremity" and what is "normal". The pampered Global North is not the norm in the world, and examples such as the Amazon are not extremities.
41LesMiserables
Geography has nothing to do with it. The truth knows no borders.
42John5918
>40 John5918:
But the concrete situations in which the truth has to be understood and exercised and in which Christ is incarnated is very different in the Global North than it is, say, in the Amazon rain forest or the swamps of South Sudan. What's more, the European and north American expressions of the faith can no longer be held up as the default or norm. Ironically, the life of Jesus and his early followers was probably far more similar to these "extremes" than to what is held up today as the "norm".
But the concrete situations in which the truth has to be understood and exercised and in which Christ is incarnated is very different in the Global North than it is, say, in the Amazon rain forest or the swamps of South Sudan. What's more, the European and north American expressions of the faith can no longer be held up as the default or norm. Ironically, the life of Jesus and his early followers was probably far more similar to these "extremes" than to what is held up today as the "norm".
43LesMiserables
So you are saying that truth needs to be changed according to situations: so subjective over objective.
On other words, no truth; anything goes.
Very modernist.
Ultimately this undermines the foundations of the Church and Christ.
On other words, no truth; anything goes.
Very modernist.
Ultimately this undermines the foundations of the Church and Christ.
44John5918
>43 LesMiserables:
No, I'm not saying that. But truth is expressed in the concrete situations in which we find ourselves, not in some abstract theoretical manner. Your situation (in USA?) is not the same as mine in South Sudan, nor that of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon.
No, I'm not saying that. But truth is expressed in the concrete situations in which we find ourselves, not in some abstract theoretical manner. Your situation (in USA?) is not the same as mine in South Sudan, nor that of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon.
45LesMiserables
44.
Truth is expressed in concrete situations depending on geographical or other situations you say?
Okay.
Give me an example.
Truth is expressed in concrete situations depending on geographical or other situations you say?
Okay.
Give me an example.
46John5918
>45 LesMiserables:
One could start with Acts 17:22-28, and one couild come right up to date by reading the documents of the Amazon Synod.
One could start with Acts 17:22-28, and one couild come right up to date by reading the documents of the Amazon Synod.
47LesMiserables
46.
Ha. Nothing to say John?
Come on, give us one of your 'concrete' examples.
Ha. Nothing to say John?
Come on, give us one of your 'concrete' examples.
48John5918
>46 John5918:
They look pretty concrete to me.
But as an example, Catholics in the USA and Europe complain about two or three parishes having to share a priest. Many Catholics in Africa and the Amazon are lucky if they see a priest once a year.
People in the USA and Europe are just beginning to believe that there is such a thing as a climate crisis. People in Africa and the Amazon are already dying in large numbers because of it.
People in the USA have forgotten that their modern nation was built on the genocide of the native peoples. In the Amazon, the native peoples are still being killed. People in Europe have forgotten that their modern nations were built on colonial exploitation. People in Africa are still suffering the consequences of colonialism, and neocolonialism is still alive and well.
People in the USA largely see capitalism as beneficial, or at least neutral. People in the Global South are being exploited and killed and having their environment destroyed in the name of capitalism.
These are some of the concrete situations in which the Church strives to preach truth in a way which is relevant to the Catholics in each situation. It's no good preaching to you about some of these situations which you have never experienced, because you apparently cannot understand. Why do you think, say, indigenous peoples in the Amazon should hear and understand Christianity if it is preached to them in the same way that it is heard and understood by you?
They look pretty concrete to me.
But as an example, Catholics in the USA and Europe complain about two or three parishes having to share a priest. Many Catholics in Africa and the Amazon are lucky if they see a priest once a year.
People in the USA and Europe are just beginning to believe that there is such a thing as a climate crisis. People in Africa and the Amazon are already dying in large numbers because of it.
People in the USA have forgotten that their modern nation was built on the genocide of the native peoples. In the Amazon, the native peoples are still being killed. People in Europe have forgotten that their modern nations were built on colonial exploitation. People in Africa are still suffering the consequences of colonialism, and neocolonialism is still alive and well.
People in the USA largely see capitalism as beneficial, or at least neutral. People in the Global South are being exploited and killed and having their environment destroyed in the name of capitalism.
These are some of the concrete situations in which the Church strives to preach truth in a way which is relevant to the Catholics in each situation. It's no good preaching to you about some of these situations which you have never experienced, because you apparently cannot understand. Why do you think, say, indigenous peoples in the Amazon should hear and understand Christianity if it is preached to them in the same way that it is heard and understood by you?
49LesMiserables
John you haven't said anything here. At all.
I mean are you saying that because of lack of priests in an area there must be women priests?
You forget about the USSR and CCP. Generations went without regular ministers. It strengthened their faith: no whining or calls for women priests.
We could go back to the 16th and 17th century Britain and Ireland: terrible persecution of Catholics. Same outcome.
A strengthened faith and no women priests.
I mean are you saying that because of lack of priests in an area there must be women priests?
You forget about the USSR and CCP. Generations went without regular ministers. It strengthened their faith: no whining or calls for women priests.
We could go back to the 16th and 17th century Britain and Ireland: terrible persecution of Catholics. Same outcome.
A strengthened faith and no women priests.
50John5918
>49 LesMiserables: John you haven't said anything here. At all.
Which is why it's fairly pointless trying to explain something which requires a global outlook, and particularly a Global South outlook, to someone who seems to be trapped in a Global North outlook.
women priests?
I was actually thinking of viri probati priests.
Which is why it's fairly pointless trying to explain something which requires a global outlook, and particularly a Global South outlook, to someone who seems to be trapped in a Global North outlook.
women priests?
I was actually thinking of viri probati priests.
51LesMiserables
Married priests. Same modernist architecture.
All what you're saying is that you cannot give me an example of Truth that can be truth despite it not being truth.
Instead you resort to...-there's no point discussing with you- which I imagine is because I have a different and time honoured sense of traditional Church teaching.
St. Paul: “Tradidi quod et accepi”
All what you're saying is that you cannot give me an example of Truth that can be truth despite it not being truth.
Instead you resort to...-there's no point discussing with you- which I imagine is because I have a different and time honoured sense of traditional Church teaching.
St. Paul: “Tradidi quod et accepi”
52John5918
>50 John5918:
Married priests modernist? It's a tradition which goes back to the earliest days of the Church and is still maintained amongst the Eastern Rite Catholics. You certainly have a different "time honoured sense of traditional Church teaching".
Married priests modernist? It's a tradition which goes back to the earliest days of the Church and is still maintained amongst the Eastern Rite Catholics. You certainly have a different "time honoured sense of traditional Church teaching".
53LesMiserables
52.
No you are leaving out around 1700 years of non married priests.
Fringe rites is not mainstream traditional Church.
No you are leaving out around 1700 years of non married priests.
Fringe rites is not mainstream traditional Church.
54John5918
>53 LesMiserables: Fringe rites
Who defines a particular group of Catholics as "fringe"? Ah yes, people in north America get to decide what is "normal" and what is "extreme", what is mainstream and what is "fringe".
Who defines a particular group of Catholics as "fringe"? Ah yes, people in north America get to decide what is "normal" and what is "extreme", what is mainstream and what is "fringe".
55LesMiserables
54.
Not at all. I'm referring to the Roman Catholic Church as being central and surround on the fringes by other rites in common with Rome.
Not at all. I'm referring to the Roman Catholic Church as being central and surround on the fringes by other rites in common with Rome.
56John5918
Nice quote from Fr Richard Rohr (a href="https://email.cac.org/t/d-e-xhijdhl-kjlrjkiki-v/">link)
Didn’t Jesus tell us that we must love even our enemies (Matthew 5:44)?... When we can on some level love even our sins and imperfections, which are our “enemies,” we are fully conscious and fully liberated. God, who is Universal Consciousness itself, knows all things, absorbs all things, and forgives all things—for being what they are. Since Jesus commands us to love our enemies, then we know that God must and will do the same. Yet the vast majority of Christians still believe in a punitive God and a pathetic notion of retributive justice, which is totally unworthy of God. This false and toxic image of God normally only recedes if we have an inner life of prayer...
Didn’t Jesus tell us that we must love even our enemies (Matthew 5:44)?... When we can on some level love even our sins and imperfections, which are our “enemies,” we are fully conscious and fully liberated. God, who is Universal Consciousness itself, knows all things, absorbs all things, and forgives all things—for being what they are. Since Jesus commands us to love our enemies, then we know that God must and will do the same. Yet the vast majority of Christians still believe in a punitive God and a pathetic notion of retributive justice, which is totally unworthy of God. This false and toxic image of God normally only recedes if we have an inner life of prayer...
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