Order of the Phoenix chapters 9-12 discussion

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Order of the Phoenix chapters 9-12 discussion

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1foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 10:31am

All right! Here are this week's discussion chapters:

9: The Woes of Mrs. Weasley
10: Luna Lovegood
11: The Sorting Hat's New Song
12: Professor Umbridge

Let's discuss!

2biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 11:08am

I took notes and remembered to bring them to work this time. Unfortunately I'm also waiting for my boss to come to my desk and show me how to do something new. So I'll just start with Chapter 9:

When Mr. Weasley and Harry run into Mr. Malfoy there's some sublte conversation between Arthur and Lucius about "here". I wonder if they were each referring to being so near the department of mysteries and not the MoM/Harry's hearing as we are led to believe.

I wonder why the Weasley's weren't more aware of the OotP the first time. Molly's brothers were in it and died. I know they had young children at the time and felt they couldn't be active...(though that didn't stop the Potters and the Longbottoms) but still.

I always wondered why Harry was so surprised to see his parents in Mad-Eye's photo. I can understand that it would be upsetting to think of everyone happy and to see them sitting next Wormtail I don't know why he was surprised. He knew his parents were in the order and that it was a picture of the order!

Things that make me LOL everytime.
1) When Molly says everyone in the family were prefects and George says "What are Fred and I? Next-door neighbors?
2) "Hermione looked as though she didn't know whether to smile or not and compromised by taking an extra large gulp of Butterbeer and choking on it."

3biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 11:24am

Now they are doing strange things like giving me actual work to do, but I am waiting for them to bring supplies so....

Chapter 10:

I love Luna! She makes me think of all the "weird" meaning socially inept kids in high school. I was sometimes mean and rarely nice and I feel bad, because they were probably awesome.

I have had dogs "hug" me the way Sirius did Harry. What was Molly's problem?

4biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 11:40am

I think you are making some excellent points biblio, I have often wondered some of that myself.

Chapter 11:

K: Umbridge wears cardigans...they're everywhere!

If you were in Hufflepuff, how would you feel about the Sorting Hat calling you "the rest" meaning you were not Pure-blood/cunning, clever, or brave? I think I would have preferred the ones where I was called loyal.

That said, I love the Sorting Hat's song, it's so true. Whenever you divide yourself into groups rivalry is sure to follow and that can often translate into hostility.

I missed Sir Nick in this movie...especially at the end, but we'll get there. On a related note, do you notice how Ron always manages to offend Nick somehow?

I love all the teachers who don't like Umbridge.

I love the hidden irony of Umbridge promoting change when she really wants to maintain the status quo...none of Dumbledores progressivism for her!

I love when Neville stands up for Harry ("We believe Harry"). I makes me cry a little bit. Neville rocks (although in my head he is much shorter and chubbier that movie Neville, I still like movie Neville too though)

5foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 11:42am

I'll go ahead and add my thoughts on Chapter 9, as well.

If I were Dumbledore, I would have made Neville a prefect, not Ron. Of course, then we couldn't have had all of the ensuing angst and jealousy from Harry.

About Moody's photo of the original order -- I didn't read Harry's reaction as surprise, exactly. Photos are strange things, though. For example, I have a completely irrational reaction to photos of myself. They are invariably bad, and even when I'm expecting it, it makes my stomach tie itself in knots. The quickest way to ruin my day is to run up to me, wave a hideous photo of me in my face, and say "Look! Isn't this a great picture of you?" This, of course, implies that you feel that the photograph has captured me at my best -- I can hardly imagine what you must think I look like on a bad day, then.
So, though it's a different case, I can understand Harry's reaction to the picture of the original Order, particularly his parents. What I'm not sure of is how this moves the plot forward at all.

LG and I were talking about this chapter in the chatroom last night, and we both thought that a lot of the stuff in it could have been edited out without hurting the story. I rather like the part with Mrs. Weasley and the boggart, for example, but I think there was too much setup for it -- it was mentioned two or three times, earlier: was it a boggart or wasn't it? Should we have Moody look at it? and then they did have Moody look at it. All this for a scene that basically underscores the point made by the Harry and the picture scene -- people died last time the Order was active; it's reasonable to assume that people will die this time.

Looking at it that way, do you think Rowling was trying to prepare us for the seventh book? for the end of this book?

6royalhistorian
Editado: Mar 24, 2008, 11:50am

I think both. From this book on it gets very serious. The war is starting.

The woes of mrs. Weasley: is that the chapter when she tries to fight that *boogeyman* (sorry, I am reading it in Dutch, can't recall the English word for it... The class was taught by Lupin to fight them) ? Kinda foreshadowing, when you look back now.

7foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 11:52am

#6 -- Yes. In English, it's called a Boggart. And I do think it was foreshadowing, both of the attack on Mr. Weasley in this book and the death of Fred in the final book. I think that perhaps Rowling was trying to prepare us for the fact that at least one of the Weasleys would die.

8biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 11:55am

I do think she was trying to prepare us for future deaths and that this time, they would be people we truly cared about. Cedric's death was hard, but we didn't know him as well as Sirius. (we decided that we didn't have to worry about spoilers with this discussion anymore right?) and each subsequent death got harder.

I suppose you're right and a lot of this isn't really necessary. It doesn't bother me though because I want to live in that world for as long as possible so the longer and more drawn out the books the better for me :)

9biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 11:57am

But didn't she say in a post DH interview that Fred's death was a surprise to her? I think that was one of her "2 deaths" everyone was obsessed with.

10littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 12:22pm

She also said that she originally intended that Mr. Weasley would die in the Nagini attack, but she just couldn't go through with it. Harry was going to lose all his father figures in OotP. That would make the endless boggart scene more useful, but still too long.

Personally, I would rather Mr. Weasley than Fred, but that's just me.

I think the prefect drama went on way too long, too. I agree, DD could have made Neville a prefect. My ex went to a British boarding school, and he was a rather shy kid and they made him a prefect. Neville would have been a good choice. For that matter, what's wrong with Dean or Seamus? But we need to have everything revolve around Harry, I guess.

I think more kids are like Fred & George about prefects, tell you the truth. Only someone like Hermione would be psyched about it.

11biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 12:23pm

They're making me work still...so I'm going to post my final thoughts and then check in when I can.

Chapter 12:

Good for Hermione standing up to Harry!

Why doesn't Cho hate Harry? (yet)

How are a regular History of Magic class and a Double Potions class both an hour and a half? Does the "Double" mean that they share it with another class? I always assumed it had something to do with the length.

How does Binns grade essays and tests? Does he have a T.A.? All indications are that HP ghosts can not touch or move things.

"Why would you need to use defensive spells" is when I definitively fell in hate w/Umbridge. Using spells the first time in an exam is completely ridiculous! I know it's supposed to be but really!

I hate/love this scene in the classroom. I see it as one of the "other students". I'm simultaneously horrified and fascinated by what is happening.

I love McGonagall and her cookies.

12biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 12:24pm

#10 I agree better Mr Weasley than Fred.

13littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 12:28pm

Re Cho: first of all, she liked Harry before she got involved with Cedric. Remember how she wished she could have gone to the Yule Ball with Harry? Harry is the only one who really knows what happened to Cedric, who witnessed his death, and she probably figures Harry understands how she feels and can commiserate with her.

Good luck commiserating with a 15-year-old boy. As she finds out. Actually, all the Cho stuff makes perfect sense to me.

14royalhistorian
Mar 24, 2008, 12:37pm

Yes, it is brilliantly written. A lot of teens will recognise it.

15biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 12:42pm

I guess hate was to strong a word. If it was me though, I don't know if I would actively seek Harry out. That could just be because I wouldn't have actively sought out any boys at that age.

16littlegeek
Editado: Mar 24, 2008, 12:44pm

I like how MacGonagall tries to treat Harry as an adult by explaining that he must play a bit of politics with Umbridge, but he totally doesn't get it. Kids that age want so much to be treated as adults, then when you do, they're clueless.

JKR is so wise....

17littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 12:45pm

Cho is a seeker! Of course she's going to seek Harry out. This is part of her appeal to Harry, I think.

18catbastet
Mar 24, 2008, 12:56pm

#11 about double classes- Double means that they are sharing the class with another house. It doesn't really have much to do with the length (I think). I think some classes are just longer than others. And the way JKR describes History of Magic class, it sounds like it takes a while for Prof. Binns to get through a class.

Luna is wonderful!

16- Yeah, JKR got it perfect.

19littlegeek
Editado: Mar 24, 2008, 1:11pm

I love Luna. Probably these days she'd get some kind of diagnosis and be put on drugs....sigh....

Celebrate uniqueness!

I was noticing that in Mary GranPre's illustration of Luna, she appears to be wearing Birkenstocks!

ETA: SPOILER FOR DH: That scene where they go into Luna's room and she has painted all their names & pictures on her wall with the word "friends" all around is maybe the most touching thing in all 7 books.

20biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 2:10pm

#19 Agree completely with your spoiler

21pollysmith
Mar 24, 2008, 2:26pm

Prefects- having only attended public schools here in the US I don't think we have anything to compare it too, except that sometimes if a teacher needed to leave the room she/he would assign a person to write down the names of any misbehavers ,which of course was dreaded by everyone, no one wanted to be the "monitor" and so consequently most of the time when the teacher came back there were no names written down , unless you would get a power hungry person like Percy up there. Some schools have hall monitors who stand in the hall and ask to see passes but I think these practices as being fazesd out as ineffective.
But I totally agree with with most people would have a Fred and George reaction to Prefect, as in who wants it? and again even tho Harry knew his parents were in the Order last time it still might have been a shock to see them . I know that coming across a picture of my grandparents who are passed can make me sad and it would be really hard if they were waving and smiling!
about Luna- I WAS Luna when I was in school, totally weird and out of sync with everyone else. So I totally get Luna!
Neville- Is a sweetheart and I have liked him more in each successive book, in many ways I was much like Neville too, shy and scared of authority and the victom of bullies, which in turn made me a bit stronger each timeas I learned to fight back
Umbridge- I have nothing to say about her at this time except I wish someone would have turned her into the toad she so resembled!

22biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 2:44pm

I think prefect must look good on a resume/college app. Like being in NHS or something.

23gpwts
Mar 24, 2008, 6:02pm

GIANT DH SPOILER

#9: as the resident Weasley Expert....
Rowlign said that one of the weasley's was definetly going to die in HP7. The reason she choose Fred was because out of the two twins he was the more forward one. He's the one who asked Angelina to the dance, and several other things. When you think of the twins you just thinking of Fred first
Which is why she thought it be more surprising and unexpected to take Fred out of the battle.
I always thought if she had to take out someone, she should have taken out Charlie. He was the most elusive of the Weasley clan, and while it woudl have been a blow, it woudl have been less painful
END OF SPOILER

I am luna, so i relate well with the totally weird, but still wanting the adventure thing. I love it.

24compskibook
Mar 24, 2008, 6:09pm

I would be a prefect just to be able to use that bathroom!

25foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 6:10pm

#23 -- gpwts!! Good to see you! And I know you favor bumping off Charlie, but as soon as Percy showed up to be reconciled, I thought he'd be the one to go. Shows what I know.

(And we decided that it's impossible to discuss this book without spoilers, so I put a general warning on the group page and we're spoilin' away!)

26littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 6:11pm

Hi, g!!!!

I will never forgive JKR for Fred. Never. It's too late to try to make it up to me now with silly rationalizations.

*sob*

27biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 6:27pm

#24 That's another good reason!

I have things to say about Fred but I will wait until we reread that. I will say though g, he was always my favorite and I was right there with you.

28gpwts
Mar 24, 2008, 7:11pm

good to know FD
I'm coming back slowly, but theres about 20 bazzillion post to sort through, i feel like a newbie again.

27: i only cried once in that entire book, when Fred died
I was mad mad mad mad mad

29Marensr
Mar 24, 2008, 8:38pm

I've only been lurking on the book thread because I don't have time to reread right now but I agree about Luna LG! I just adore her (that's who I dressed up as for the release of the last book complete with earrings and necklace I made myself and I had little girls saying how much I looked like Luna it was fun)

Complete agreement on your book 7 spoiler and I love that JKR in her discussion of what happened to characters said she ended up as a kind of magical naturalist seeking out magical species in the wild.

I am sorry I haven't been rereading because I think this is the book where Rowling makes a brilliant turn. She has introduced good vs evil and that isn't new in children's books or fiction but here she adds the layer of politics and people who will do bad things because they believe they are right and I think that is a profound thing to teach children. Looking at the history of the world there is more harm from groups fighting because they believe emphatically in their own rightness and very few solitary evil figures.

Hi g

And yes I want a prefects bathroom too sans Myrtle.

30biblioholic29
Mar 24, 2008, 9:02pm

Mar: that was really deep. I feel like I'm going to have things to say about it when I'm awake!

31littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 9:34pm

Maren, you do look like Luna. How cool is that?

32Marensr
Mar 24, 2008, 9:35pm

*smiles* Thanks. That whole pale thing comes useful sometimes.

33rissa
Mar 24, 2008, 9:43pm

#27, I don't think you could feel the same way about Fred as g does *thinks back to early adventure threads*

34littlegeek
Mar 24, 2008, 9:51pm

#33 Someone needs to hip bib to all that. Yes, rissa, you're right.

35foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 10:45pm

Chapter 10:

I feel like I should have more to say about this chapter. I agree with everyone who has said that they love Luna -- she's great! I don't think I was like Luna when I was a teen -- more like the worst possible Hermione/Neville cross you can imagine -- but I sometimes think I'm a bit like her now. Random, yanno. I love the Quibbler as it's described in this chapter.

My main beef with this chapter is the Thestrals. I still think that Harry should have been able to see them at the end of GoF. I know that JKR said something about him not having processed everything that had happened by the end of GoF, but I think that sounds suspiciously like an author's attempt to cover a gaping plot hole.

36foggidawn
Editado: Mar 24, 2008, 10:55pm

Chapter 11:

Not much to say that hasn't already been said. I do love the way that Ron always manages to offend Nearly Headless Nick.

I thought the scene with Seamus was well done. At that age, a parent's opinion can carry real weight. I remember being about 15, and some girl at summer camp made a comment about how her parents thought my parents had done a really poor job at something or other (our parents were in the same line of work). I don't think I spoke to her for the rest of the summer. Seamus is doing the same sort of thing to Harry.

37foggidawn
Mar 24, 2008, 10:58pm

Chapter 12:

Minerva McGonagall is my hero, and I want to be just like her when I grow up. That is all.

38kgriffith
Mar 25, 2008, 12:05am

When Molly was fighting the boggart and saw Harry among the other family members, i really thought that it would mean that he would be added to the family clock before the end of the books. i really wish Rowling had done that, but the Weasleys gift to Harry of the coming-of-age watch was as good a "you're family" indicator as the clock would have been, I suppose...

39biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 8:33am

#29 Maren:

I think you put that very well. OotP has always been my favorite HP book and that change is one of the main reasons, however I've never been able to articulate it as well as you did!

#33 rissa:

I read some of the adventure threads last week. I used to have daydreams of marrying Fred and I was heartbroken when he died. I would also like to say that Fred and George were born in 1978 and I was born in 1979 we are very close in age and therefore much more likely to have met and fallen in love. ;)

#38 Laia:

It's very cool in this book that Harry does get to see more people caring for him in true and obvious ways. The other point is when Molly tells Sirius that Harry is "as good as" her son. I'm not sure if until this point Harry really knew the depth of the Weasley's caring for him.

40littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 10:59am

CAUTION: Book to movie observation: There's a difference in the book & movie versions of the fight between Harry & Seamus. In the book, it's really Harry who gets all up on Seamus first; all Seamus does is mention that his mother has been reading and agreeing with the (crap! what's the name of the paper again! god, I'm old!) and then asks Harry what happened, which prompts H gets all "so's your mother" on his 55. In the movie, Seamus is more confrontational right from the getgo.

Makes more sense the book way.

41biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 12:40pm

#40 The Daily Prophet

I agree but then are we really surprised given the way I feel about the movie?

42littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 12:44pm

Thanks, bib.

Book ways usually make more sense, but movies can still be fun to watch. I kind of liked the movie's "psycho Harry" more than the book's "whiney & confused Harry." I think the latter is more realistic, but the former easier to spend 2 hours with.

43biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 12:53pm

LOL lg. I've never thought of separating the two separate Harry's like that before. I like the term "psycho Harry". I really need to rewatch that movie.

44littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 1:05pm

I think I want to change the book Harry to "hormonal Harry." Sure, he was kept out of the loop and Voldy was trying to read his mind, but still, mostly the tone of events is a normal, 15-year-old male kind of angst. In the movie, his friends are eyeing him like he's a mental case from the bedroon scene onwards.

45gpwts
Mar 25, 2008, 1:56pm

Bib, please please dont' take away my ranking as prominate Weasley lover. I have stories written where i'm marry Fred, don't take that away from me. I don't know if I'd make it through

Being a 15 year old, i tend to stay away from teh angst thing, cuz i have a feeling i'll get defensive, which will only prove your point!

46biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 2:19pm

#45:

Sorry g I won't take it from you. Let me ask you though...I like book Fred more than book George, but I like movie George better than book Fred. Is that weird? The problem is that all the good ones are already taken! Who's left for poor old me? I guess maybe Charlie would be okay....

47foggidawn
Mar 25, 2008, 2:58pm

#46 -- as long as you keep your mitts off Sev, we're fine.
;-)

48biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 4:03pm

No problem foggi though Alan Rickman is a whole other story!

49littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 4:47pm

Sirius AND Gary Oldman are mine! (And Tyson Beckford, but suge & I are still fighting over that!)

50foggidawn
Mar 25, 2008, 5:18pm

#48 -- I may consent to share Rickman. I always get depressed when I consider that he's old enough to be my father. He is, in fact, older than my father. But oh, that voice!

Boy are we off-topic! But if this off-topic-ness is wrong, I don't want to be right! ;-)

51littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 5:35pm

He's the right age for me--I'll be happy to take him off your hands.

52foggidawn
Mar 25, 2008, 5:45pm

No, no, no! After all, age is just a number, right? Right???

53littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 5:59pm

Indeed!

54gpwts
Mar 25, 2008, 6:20pm

bib, i fell in love with fred from the first moment he spoke. I scare my parents cuz i can tell them apart in the movies

don't get too attatched to Charlie, i'm bring back fred and killing him off instead

I shudder at snape, but maybe ol' Sirius

55rissa
Mar 25, 2008, 6:22pm

sometimes I feel left out because I don't have a crush on any of the HP characters (or any other literary characters really)

56biblioholic29
Editado: Mar 25, 2008, 6:40pm

#50 I know what you mean foggi, he's older than my dad too, though not by much. I fell in love with him and his voice in Sense and Sensibility. I also feel in love with Hugh Laurie in that movie...he's so funny!

ETA Rissa, my first literary crush was Peter Pan shortly followed by Joe Hardy, now its Ramses Emerson.

57jugglingpaynes
Mar 25, 2008, 7:06pm

#56 - Hehe! Ramses is nice, but his father is my heartthrob!

Sorry. That was completely off topic. I'll give you back your thread now. :o)

58biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 7:11pm

#57 Too often things Emerson does reminds me of my ex-husband, usually the few good things I remember about him but still unwelcome. I therefore prefer Ramses.

Don't worry about hijacking, it was my fault!

59compskibook
Mar 25, 2008, 7:50pm

56, Bib, I loved Rickman in that movie. Who was Hugh Laurie? Willoughby? The brother?

You are to young for Joe Hardy!

60catbastet
Mar 25, 2008, 8:02pm

55- Trust me, rissa, it's better this way. No one is going to jinx you because you share a crush. ;)

61biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 8:09pm

LOL...there were some Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys supermysteries in the late 80's early '90s. Like Double Crossing (Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys Supermystery, No. 1)

Hugh Laurie played Mr. Palmer. He was hilariously crotchety and totally sweet when Marianne got sick at his "house".

62littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 8:14pm

OK, on the resurrected SS/PS thread someone mentioned "the year Lupin started" and it got me to thinking....was he in a different year from the other mauraders. If so, why does he say that he got the prefect badge over James & Sirius because they were always in detention.

And then cat said that James was Head Boy. How do you get to be HB if you're not a prefect!?

Are these more of JKR's "math problems?"

63compskibook
Mar 25, 2008, 8:15pm

I forgot about him. He and Mrs. Palmer were great!

Next week on PBS is the new version of S and S. I guess it starts with a rather racy scene!

64catbastet
Mar 25, 2008, 8:16pm

Apparently, as mentioned in the SS/PS thread, James got Head Boy status because he was Quidditch captain. They were all in the same year.

65biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 8:16pm

Ooops! I already said this on the SS/PS thread but here goes. In OotP when Harry goes into the pensieve he sees his dad, Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, and Sev all taking their OWL, therefore they were all in the same class.

I believe James Potter was Quiddich captain, which is how he got to be HB. (I think this might actually be why Mrs. Weasley considers Charlie as having been a prefect.)

66biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 8:18pm

#63 I read about that. S & S is my fave Jane Austen, so I'm going to try to remember to watch it.

67littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 8:22pm

Ok, you guys are right, it's the QC thing. But still, here's another thing that bugs: James & Lily died when they were 21, yet when they appear in the movies they are much older. How annoying.

68biblioholic29
Mar 25, 2008, 8:25pm

Totally! Also that would make Sirius and Lupin and Snape and Wormtail only about 36 by OotP. I suppose you could make an argument for Azkaban/being a werewolf/being unpleasant/being a rat would take a toll on their looks, but aren't wizards supposed to age well? Look at Hagrid, he's in his Sixties and doesn't look it at all.

6906nwingert
Mar 25, 2008, 8:28pm

I loved these chapters becuase it's when Rowling threw out the children's book persona and made HP a political satire novel (which is why I loved the movie- Yates heavily emphasized that point).

70foggidawn
Mar 25, 2008, 8:39pm

#68 -- That's part of the reason that Rickman, though otherwise "practically perfect in every way" (oops, that belongs on the movie trivia thread), does not match up with my mental image of Snape.

71Marensr
Mar 25, 2008, 8:41pm

#39 Thanks bib!

#69 I agree. I know this movie has taken some heat all of them have. But I like it. I think it is my favorite after PoA. Cuaron is just a better film maker and better cinematorgraphy. But in part what he does well is the politics and even though Ginny doesn't have the lines and development she has in the books he gave her significance in some of the long shots. He attempted to develop that relationship even without the dialogue being there and I resepct that.

Wait -let me give the caveat that the books are better the films are entirely different entities that I am able to enjoy independently. I will have favorite things too that got cut that I miss but I'll live with it.

72littlegeek
Mar 25, 2008, 9:38pm

I liked the movie a lot, too. PoA is still my fav, but the performances in OotP were great. The occlumency scenes rock.

73foggidawn
Mar 29, 2008, 11:05am

Happy weekend, everyone! Don't forget to read chapters 13-16 for Monday's discussion!

74pollysmith
Mar 29, 2008, 6:53pm

Okay bhaving now finished rereading OotP I have noticed another little inconsistentcy. JFF says later in the book then this discussion that "...Prefects can't take points...." and yet Percy does it in CoS.... comments?

75biblioholic29
Mar 29, 2008, 7:05pm

I think I've read something somewhere that Percy was basically making empty threats but I can't remember if it was JKR who said this or reader speculation...it may have been on her site or in a book somewhere.