Group Read: The Cromwell Trilogy: The Mirror and The Light

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Group Read: The Cromwell Trilogy: The Mirror and The Light

1rhian_of_oz
Abr 29, 2021, 10:12 am

It's just about May so time to open up a new thread for the discussion of the final book in Hilary Mantel's Cromwell trilogy.

There aren't rules per se but the following would be appreciated:
  • Only post about the book on or after the first day of the read.
  • Include information on the chapter/page you're posting about to help others avoid spoilers.
  • Hide or flag spoilers.
  • 2dchaikin
    Abr 30, 2021, 11:13 am

    Have to finish my current book first, Summer, but i hope to begin soon. Thanks for starting this thread.

    3AlisonY
    Abr 30, 2021, 1:49 pm

    I'm nicely about to finish my current book, so guess this is next up!

    4AlisonY
    Maio 2, 2021, 9:47 am

    I'm around 70 pages in, and I must admit I'm still not thinking of Cromwell as a total monster. I keep asking myself why not, given he sent all those men and Anne to their deaths. He was definitely selfishly self-serving and could absolutely have saved those heads if he'd so wished, so why am I not loathing him? I think it's Mantel's portrayal of him - there's a certain sympathy for the fact that he's in this up to his neck now, and if he doesn't keep kicking out he'll surely be dragged down.

    Anyway, enjoying this third instalment so far. There's a palpable tension from the get-go, with those who supported him in the Anne debacle now feeling that Cromwell owes them. As for Henry, he's coming across as not quite the full shilling, childlike and foolish in his hot and cold whims, so I'm left with more of a sense so far in this book that Cromwell made all of the decisions with regards to the beheadings. Henry didn't necessarily want some or all of them killed - he just wanted Cromwell to take care of his marriage situation, and wasn't especially interested in getting into the detail of how he accomplished that.

    5cindydavid4
    Maio 2, 2021, 10:48 am

    >4 AlisonY: Henry didn't necessarily want some or all of them killed - he just wanted Cromwell to take care of his marriage situation, and wasn't especially interested in getting into the detail of how he accomplished that.

    Yeah ya know, by that time Henry was indeed head of the English Church. Why didn't he divorce her? There was no one who was going to tell him no? And Anne was a fellow beliver of Cromwells. Did his want for avenge trump his feeling for his sister in Christ?

    6AlisonY
    Maio 2, 2021, 12:55 pm

    >6 AlisonY: It's very difficult to know how much Henry was an instigator of the beheadings versus Cromwell. I suspect he didn't go for an outright divorce as I'm not sure he felt that his position as head of the church in England was fully cemented by that stage.

    It's still misty for me as to Cromwell's motives at the moment too. I feel Mantel's deliberately confusing me at the moment, making me like Cromwell on one page and then see another side of him on the next. It's clever - I like what she's doing.

    7Removido
    Maio 2, 2021, 11:26 pm

    >6 AlisonY: Not reading the books because the first novel didn't grab me, but following the discussion as the period is interesting.

    As I understand it, there had to be grounds for divorce. Cromwell understood that even as head of the C of E, Henry could not just divorce Anne without cause. Protestant doctrine aside, divorce without grounds would have destabilized any alliances through marriage that Henry might have wanted to make with foreign powers. So something had to be trumped up, and it had to be scandalous. Treason and adultery incest for good measure got the job done. It cast Henry as the wronged husband and put Anne (and her ruthlessly ambitious family) completely beyond the pale.

    Of course, the Seymours were waiting in the wings scheming to advance their own family through Jane, so the game of manipulating the king continued with different players.

    8cindydavid4
    Maio 3, 2021, 10:50 am

    >7 nohrt4me2: thanks for that clarification, except he had the same cause as hi did divorcing Katherine: she did not give birth to an heir. But I get you.

    9Removido
    Editado: Maio 3, 2021, 1:31 pm

    >8 cindydavid4: The rub was that both Katherine and Anne DID produce heirs, but it was feared that, because they were women, they would be weak, under the sway of husbands and other male relatives, and throw the Tudor dynasty into disarray.

    Ha, like Henry wasn't already doing a real good job in the disarray department on his own.

    Ironically, it was Edward who was most in thrall to the men in the Seymour family on account of his age. I'll be interested to hear how Mantel treats Cromwell's cultivation of the Seymours.

    Meantime, Mary and Elizabeth were waiting in the wings learning and scheming and grooming their own partisans against the day they might ascend. Both of them had reason to send Cromwell to the chopping block if Henry hadn't, and I'm pretty sure that's where he would have ended up eventually had he managed to escape Henry.

    10cindydavid4
    Maio 3, 2021, 9:05 pm

    >9 nohrt4me2: The rub was that both Katherine and Anne DID produce heirs,

    oh right, a male heir. True, that.

    Not sure what you mean by "Ironically, it was Edward who was most in thrall to the men in the Seymour family on account of his age." Because Edward Seymor became regent?

    I do often wonder if there would have been a 'bloody mary' if princess mary was heir, but that was probably too much for the men at that time

    So how exactly did Mary become queen?

    11Removido
    Editado: Maio 3, 2021, 10:59 pm

    "Ironically" because Mary and Elizabeth, thought more likely to be swayed and controlled by male family members because they were women, were actually the most self-directed of Henry's children. Edward, as a minor, was much more under the thumb of his Seymour uncles than his sisters were of their male relatives.

    Mary and Elizabeth were restored to the succession through an act of Parliament. Edward died before he was married and had no children, so Mary succeeded. She married Philip of Spain, and they had no children. Elizabeth succeeded Mary.

    Before Edward's birth, Henry was constantly floating the idea of legitimizing his bastard son Henry Fitzroy and putting him in the line of succession. At one point, it was even suggested that Fitzroy marry Mary (his half-sister!), which the Pope might have been willing to allow in order to prevent a schism with the English church. Henry had other illegitimate sons by married women. But those boys were passed off as the sons of their mothers' husbands and were not acknowledged as Fitzroy was.

    12dchaikin
    Maio 4, 2021, 8:58 am

    Enjoying the discussion. Just posting to say i’ll begin this evening...and that I’m a bit daunted by the size.

    13AlisonY
    Maio 4, 2021, 1:24 pm

    I've finished the first 2 chapters, so up to page 167 in the UK paperback edition.

    I'm enjoying it so far. Although Cromwell's position has escalated further, there's a palpable sense that he knows he's involved in a dangerous game which he may not win. I didn't get that feeling as much in book 2. Anne's death has changed things considerably in terms of who the power playing families are, and everything feels as if it's built on quick sand.

    There's also more reference to the pain Henry is in with his old leg wound, and the impact that is having on his mood.

    All extremely interesting.....

    14cindydavid4
    Maio 4, 2021, 2:50 pm

    >11 nohrt4me2: "Ironically" because Mary and Elizabeth, thought more likely to be swayed and controlled by male family members because they were women, were actually the most self-directed of Henry's children. Edward, as a minor, was much more under the thumb of his Seymour uncles than his sisters were of their male relatives.

    ah, yes you are probably right

    trying to remember, a while back reading an excellent book about Mary and Eliz during that time period. I remember it was constantly back and forth; amazing Mary did not kill Eliz outright.

    15dchaikin
    Maio 7, 2021, 10:03 am

    I’m on about page 24, yet already I’m struck by Cromwell’s untenable position between factions. If either faction wins, he’s done. (And I appreciate the illustration of his position through Marlinspike’s predicament.)

    16cindydavid4
    Maio 7, 2021, 3:44 pm

    Even in the last book, Call Me was begging Cromwell to pay attention to this. I do wonder how a man as smart and cunning as he was (at least how he appears on paper) so oblivious. Maybe he thought he was pretected by the king. Anne thought the same thing

    Love Marlinspike and thinking about using that name for my next cat

    17dchaikin
    Maio 7, 2021, 3:53 pm

    >16 cindydavid4: it does seem he gets it and that Call-Me has to lay it out out-loud only because that’s the type of person he is. It’s a kind of endearing personality flaw.

    18AlisonY
    Maio 8, 2021, 4:28 am

    I'm about to start part 3, so nearly 400 pages in. The last chapter of part 2 didn't capture my attention as much - I glazed over a few times and had to go back over some sections. I understand that it's important Mantel doesn't speed up the events ultimately leading to Cromwell falling out of Henry's favour, but the story has felt it's stopped moving forward so much and Cromwell is treading water.

    Hoping part 3 gets things moving again. All chapters before have been great. Perhaps it's me - will be interested in everyone's thoughts when you get there.

    19rhian_of_oz
    Maio 8, 2021, 9:58 am

    >16 cindydavid4: I actually think it's a bit more arrogance than oblivion. In Part One, Chapter 2 (page 36/37 in my version) Cromwell is describing (well thinking about) his "bargain" with Carew and friends and how their versions of it differ. I think Cromwell was used to being the smartest man in the room and believed he could manage all sides.

    20dchaikin
    Maio 8, 2021, 10:45 am

    >16 cindydavid4: >19 rhian_of_oz: Rhian has a good point. He seems to be aware. At this point (Pg 37) I don’t think he fully has accepted the danger he’s in.

    Side note - sort of an “of course” - there is an aspect to the Anne culmination in that Cromwell was just doing what needed to be done. He managed the world changing break with Rome for Henry’s sake. So, it’s more dirty work, extreme anything, to do the job. I emphasize only that there is an aspect of this. I don’t mean to undermine any of the previous comments in these threads (somewhat including my own).

    21AlisonY
    Maio 9, 2021, 10:11 am

    >20 dchaikin: I agree, Dan. I don't think Cromwell would be rushing to send people for the chop otherwise. He's playing a high stakes game now, and abhorrent as the consequences are there's a certain 'of the times' aspect to his actions.

    22AlisonY
    Maio 9, 2021, 1:02 pm

    I'm over halfway through now, and Mantel's still making me feel sympathetic towards Cromwell. Will be interested in everyone's views when you get there.

    23cindydavid4
    Maio 9, 2021, 2:13 pm

    >20 dchaikin: I agree re rhians comment. arrogance makes more sense, oblvion no because he doesnt seem to miss a thing and "t’s more dirty work, extreme anything, to do the job." yeah many things goin on here (Undermine comments? I don't know what that means, but I don't notice anything wrong with yours!!!

    24cindydavid4
    Maio 9, 2021, 2:16 pm

    >22 AlisonY: thats about where I am. has he met his daughter yet? One of my fav scenes in all three books, a little 'if only' and 'what if' for him

    25dchaikin
    Maio 9, 2021, 2:44 pm

    >24 cindydavid4: the Cromwell biography “spoiled” that for me. 🙂

    26cindydavid4
    Maio 9, 2021, 4:57 pm

    Ah, well. But wait she's a fictional character? or.....

    27dchaikin
    Maio 9, 2021, 5:02 pm

    >26 cindydavid4: nonfictional - although her parentage is suspected, and not confirmed.

    28AlisonY
    Maio 9, 2021, 5:44 pm

    >24 cindydavid4: Yep, past that. Jane has died - I'll be starting Part 4 tomorrow evening.

    I've been looking online at the painting Hans did of Cromwell. He's definitely younger, slimmer and better looking in my head...

    29cindydavid4
    Maio 9, 2021, 6:33 pm

    >28 AlisonY: I know right? Yikes talk about a bad hair/body day.

    30cindydavid4
    Maio 9, 2021, 9:10 pm

    Just now reading another one of my fav scenes, 397, Crumb talking with Edward Seymour about marriage with his sister. the misunderstanding that happens later is priceless; I hope it really happened!

    31AlisonY
    Maio 10, 2021, 3:32 am

    >30 cindydavid4: That was very amusing. In fact, there are a lot of very dry humour moments in this book which I'm enjoying.

    32cindydavid4
    Editado: Maio 10, 2021, 3:20 pm

    Knowing what happens, this read is sending up a hell of a lot of red flags that someone should be paying attention to. Including 'there are traitors in every house'

    Oh and before that, there is a lovely section in Vile Blood, pg 307 where Crumb is reminishing about his time training with Uncle John. Trains him to smell before tasting and getting the spices right in the dish. John says 'nothing is so green as a summer in England, Thomas. Those who voyrage yearn for it, they dream of a bowl such as this." Continues on 308, but whats on the page before had my mouth watering and I want to know what this is!!!!! and then Thomas description of picking elderberries. just sublime

    33AlisonY
    Maio 12, 2021, 2:22 am

    Yes, interestingly there's more self-examination and thoughts about his past, including watching that first female burning as a child and how it changed him.

    34dchaikin
    Maio 12, 2021, 9:40 am

    Made it all the way to page 100. The prison scene with Francis Bryan is wonderful. The scene before that, with Henry and his key advisers and Firzwilliams going bonkers was good fun too. No clue how he can resolve the Mary situation. Any result seems bad to me.

    35rhian_of_oz
    Maio 14, 2021, 1:27 am

    >31 AlisonY: I literally laughed out loud when the scene when Cromwell is writing a letter and says "This will require self-abasement." and his nephew responds "Shall I go out and find somebody who's better at it than you are?".

    36AlisonY
    Maio 14, 2021, 2:23 pm

    >35 rhian_of_oz: Definitely seeing much more of Mantel's humour in this book. It's a bit misleading, though, as it makes me warm towards Cromwell so I have yo keep reminding myself that it's Mantel's dry wit and not his (unless some of it is from research).

    37sallypursell
    Maio 14, 2021, 6:39 pm

    I still don't see a Cromwell I didn't see before, in Wolf Hall, although he is taking action on things he just schemed about earlier. He is keeping his word to Katherine about Mary, and this will be one of his missteps, even if I like him the better for it. The Mary situation is a no-win setup. It is careful stepping for Cromwell not to doom himself, and Henry will never be happy with it, no matter what happens. Henry has displaced his anger at his situation onto Cromwell. After all, Cromwell can do anything, can't he? Then why doesn't he make it alright for Henry?

    I think that >5 cindydavid4:, Henry, having made so much of his justification for dissolution of his marriage to Katherine, feels he looks foolish if he does set aside Anne for similar reasons. He has tortured logic for Anne's sake, and he resents it. She has to have done something terrible to justify dissolving his second marriage, and it has to be something that makes his judgement vulnerable, like witchcraft as well as adultery and incest. That way he is not at fault that he was fooled--anyone would have been! Also, conceivably Katherine could have been simply "in error" about her marriage to Prince Arthur, because Henry told the world so. He can't plead error with Jane, he must plead her grievous guilt.

    Unfortunately, setting aside Katherine does not, in the long run, look as bad as killing Anne, et. al. It smacks of vindictiveness and selfishness, so I believe Henry unconsciously begins to hold Cromwell accountable for this. Cromwell may be trying to do what Henry wants, getting rid of Anne, but at a terrible cost to Henry. No one finds a cuckold anything other than ridiculous. The method used to obviate Anne places Henry in an invidious position, and the world does not respect him. This is worse than the world disapproving of his actions with Katherine. I think the world would have expected him to settle himself contentedly with his (first) wife, and tolerate lack of a male heir. He could have legitimized any of his children or adopted some likely young man of the royal or high noble classes.

    I suppose someone must have suggested somewhere that Henry is unable to sire a healthy male due to a venereal disease, or some x-linked genetic disorder, which might account for the loss of males, specifically. His many wives seem able to conceive, but it strains belief that infertility was connected to all of them. It is either chance, or some medical reason, why Henry could not engender healthy children. Clearly his parents could have children, including males, but Henry's problem seems as if may progressive. One is highly tempted to the venereal disease explanation. We know he was lusty and prone to sleeping around in his youth.
    He seemed to have changes in personality later in life, too. Of course, we know that he had a severe concussion at one point, and he seems to have had a chronic infection in his leg wound. Pain and head injuries can cause changes in personality, as well as advancing syphilis. Mary Boleyn went on to have healthy children. Either he contracted any STD later, or she was resistant, or it wasn't syphilis, at least. Other less obvious STD's can cause male infertility especially.

    Sorry for rambling. I'm not liking this one very much, and I am finding it more difficult to read. Still, I am up to page 233, so I imagine I will finish it. I am still curious, since I don't remember what happens to Cromwell. This novel has the consistent feel of the slide to tragedy happening, though. BUTB had it in pulses, but here it is constant.

    38dchaikin
    Maio 14, 2021, 11:18 pm

    >37 sallypursell: regarding your last paragraph - maybe this book is all a long long tension (i should note you’re way ahead of me). Maybe the dry humor only serves to highlight the tension it’s trying to relieve.

    39AlisonY
    Maio 15, 2021, 3:12 am

    >37 sallypursell: I'm enjoying it (and I'm close to page 700), but some sections I'm feeling are unnecessary fillers, or at least there's a little too much padding and waiting for the inevitable to happen. It's less about his time spent with Henry or at home and more on his interactions with other key figures at court and the church. I'm more drawn to the former, but get that this is all relevant to the changing tide that's happening.

    40cindydavid4
    Maio 15, 2021, 12:32 pm

    Looking for more, found this interesting bio Rise & Fall of Thomas Cromwell: Henry VIII's Most Faithful Servant by Paul scofield

    a few sections of reviews that might touch on some of our questions

    Schofield is careful to distinguish between various influences and driving forces for actions and outcomes in Henry's court. What events/reforms/actions are driven by Cromwell, what by Henry and what by other actors is carefully analysed and distinguished. The same careful analysis is applied to religious influences, differences and conflicts that characterised that period of time. The result is a dynamic and multidimensional account of the time and its primary actors.

    One of the pitfalls encountered in some historical works is the tendency of authors to make heroes or villains of historical personages or to apply modern judgment to earlier times. Schofield avoids this trap - his writing is both compassionate and analytical and he consistently warns against the emotive response to events that might shock the modern conscience, but that were commonplace and unexceptional in the period of the study.

    Ive read scofield before and think this looks really interesting and am ordering it!

    41cindydavid4
    Editado: Maio 15, 2021, 12:54 pm

    >37 sallypursell: Henry, having made so much of his justification for dissolution of his marriage to Katherine, feels he looks foolish if he does set aside Anne for similar reasons. He has tortured logic for Anne's sake, and he resents it. She has to have done something terrible to justify dissolving his second marriage, and it has to be something that makes his judgement vulnerable, like witchcraft as well as adultery and incest.

    and yet others weren't fooled. Even tho so much of the world hated Anne, I don't think anyone believed those rumors and knew he was just grasping at straws. And he is surprised when he is looking for another wife, ambassadors tell him, "why should we agree, you kill them all'.

    >37 sallypursell: Unfortunately, setting aside Katherine does not, in the long run, look as bad as killing Anne, et. al. It smacks of vindictiveness and selfishness, so I believe Henry unconsciously begins to hold Cromwell accountable for this. Cromwell may be trying to do what Henry wants, getting rid of Anne, but at a terrible cost to Henry.

    Yes, Id been wondering that; I don't think it was Anne Cleves who did Crumb in, I think it was Henry's resentment of what he thinks Cromwell is responsible for re Anne that ultimately gets his goat and he goes off finding other things that Crumbs enemies feed him.

    and I do agree - think Henry had something wrong with his system, whatever disease would make total sense here.

    Would like to read more about Mary Bolyn (and yes I read Phillipa Gregorys book and think I made a hole in the wall when I tossed it there) Will have to look.

    42cindydavid4
    Maio 15, 2021, 12:44 pm

    >38 dchaikin: yes; that comic relief that shakespear so famously used in his tragedies is at play here. She does that well

    43cindydavid4
    Maio 15, 2021, 12:51 pm

    >27 dchaikin: yes, true.

    44cindydavid4
    Maio 15, 2021, 12:51 pm

    >33 AlisonY: Alison she mentions that incident in each book and I notice that this last time was when cromwell really considers how this affected him as a child, and how he responds to it.. And Mantel does not shy away from describing these later burnings in detail as he keeps recalling them over and over again

    45cindydavid4
    Maio 15, 2021, 12:52 pm

    >39 AlisonY: but some sections I'm feeling are unnecessary fillers, or at least there's a little too much padding and waiting for the inevitable to happen.

    Yes, esp his very long philosophical discussions in his head. I think reviewers who were critical of this were right - she did not want his life to end. As you go, you'll see how looooong that ending is, and while moving (esp with Christopher) it could have been shorter but to be fair, its not bothering me because I don't want the book to end either!

    46dchaikin
    Maio 15, 2021, 1:02 pm

    >45 cindydavid4: I’ll have to come back to this comment. I think having Cromwell essentially in first person really compromises how she can handle his execution. The story goes on, but she has to stay mum. I wonder of that plays any role on the struggle to conclude this book...unless she lets his ghost narrate.

    47dchaikin
    Editado: Maio 15, 2021, 1:15 pm

    >40 cindydavid4: in the biography I’m listening to there is a really interesting theme that Mantel doesn’t really bring up. MacCulloch argues Cromwell was a closet devout Evangelical. That is he had deep sympathy with the decedents of John Wyclif’s Lollards.

    What’s interesting is it makes Cromwell deeply religious and it explains a lot of what he does. As he must compromise to honor the king, it all goes essentially unacknowledged.

    This had to tie into Wolsey somehow, which is tricky. Except Cromwell’s main role under Wolsey was to close down monasteries to fund Wolsey’s projects (christ’s church college at Oxford and a college at Ipswitch that didn’t survive Wolsey.) And one of his most famous roles under Henry was to close monasteries.

    As I understand, and i haven’t found a clear explanation, the closet Lollard movement of this time was essentially a reform movement that wanted to a lot of the same things Luther did. Clean the church of wealth and bad habits, open the bible more directly to people by translating it - that kind of thing. It explains Crannach and many Cromwell appointments. It explains the More conflict. More was a fierce traditionalist - anti-reforms. But also Cromwell was practical enough to work with people with different religions views...and his powers were limited in different ways at different times. Anyway, thought it was worth bringing up here.

    48AlisonY
    Maio 15, 2021, 1:16 pm

    >45 cindydavid4: I agree! In all honesty, there's probably only been twice during reading of the book where I've glazed a little. I'm still amazed at how she holds your interest so well throughout much of it, despite the long length of the novel.

    49sallypursell
    Maio 15, 2021, 6:26 pm

    >40 cindydavid4: Oh, that looks really great. I want it, but I have nowhere to put my books now--I have to stop acquiring more physical books, much as their acquisition pleases me.

    50sallypursell
    Maio 15, 2021, 6:37 pm

    >40 cindydavid4: I really thank you all for considering everyone else's views so carefully, especially cindydavid for me ;). .The best thing about these books, in addition to the sheer readability and likability of them, is this allowing of us all to also be very thoughtful about Cromwell, just as he is thoughtful. Furthermore, it makes so much sense this way; it is not too much to take in at this pace. I may not be liking it as much as the first two, but I'll bet that I will when I have finished it.

    51AlisonY
    Maio 16, 2021, 8:43 am

    Well, I'm finished and nursing a huge book hangover! Wow - what a trilogy.

    I appreciate that most of you are a good bit further back so I'll save much of my musing until you're finished, but you can find my review here if you're interested: https://www.librarything.com/topic/327717#n7507633

    Again, I ultimately felt on Cromwell's side in this book, which is bothering me somewhat - I'm not sure I should feel like that given his brutal track record. I guess Mantel has simply been a genius at illustrating how people are far from one-dimensional, and that there is a human, emotive side to all of us, but there was a ruthless brilliance to Cromwell too that I can't help but admire - the ultimate plate spinner and social climber.

    Henry, alas, always needed a scapegoat when things weren't going his way, but as he and his fellow rulers at that time were always so dependant on the information that was fed to them I can understand why, particularly when peevish over the Anne marriage disaster, he felt even his most trusted advisor may not be true in his intentions. A man of quick temper and childish disposition he was desperately impulsive in his decision-making, easy to sway and quick to act. The phrase 'marry in haste, repent at leisure' feels almost written for him, true not just of his marriages but also his decisions, including that of getting rid of Cromwell.

    Ultimately I feel OK that I finished the book feeling a little wretched for Cromwell. How different things might have turned out if he hadn't come down with the Italian flu or if Gardiner had stayed out of the way.

    Anyway, all told I loved this book, and thank you all for encouraging me to read this trilogy on the back of your enthusiasm for it.

    52AlisonY
    Maio 16, 2021, 8:50 am

    Just to add that I felt on the side of Mantel's Cromwell, but I'm conscious that this is her fictionalised view of him. In Holbein's portrait he looked pompous and miserable, but in Mantel's hands he was drole and rather brilliant. Wouldn't it be wonderful to know exactly what he was like?

    53cindydavid4
    Maio 16, 2021, 11:10 am

    >51 AlisonY: Ultimately I feel OK that I finished the book feeling a little wretched for Cromwell. How different things might have turned out if he hadn't come down with the Italian flu or if Gardiner had stayed out of the way.

    or if he actually listened to his young men working with him, who were seeing what he refused to and begged him to follow through. I was shocked when call me first appeard as the traitor in the house but totally understood, esp after rereading all three books to see a pattern starting.

    54cindydavid4
    Editado: Maio 20, 2021, 7:03 pm

    Pg 621 Henry surprises Anne Cleves, meeting her elsewhere than was planned. Crumb tries to talk him out of it, but he goes off, dressed as Robin Hood. It was a disaster. So when people say he fell due to his choosing of Anne for the king, it was really Henry who should be blamed. One wonders what would have happened if all had gone as planned, would that have helped Cromwell live longer? this scene is rather comical, but rather dreadful

    I was curious and found this and t did happen from Wiki:

    Henry met her privately on New Year's Day 1540 at Rochester Abbey in Rochester on her journey from Dover.15 Henry and some of his courtiers, following a courtly-love tradition, went disguised into the room where Anne was staying.15 According to the testimony of Henry's companions, he was disappointed with Anne, feeling that she was not as described. According to the chronicler Charles Wriothesley, Anne "regarded him little",17 though it is unknown whether she knew this was the king.18 Henry then revealed his true identity to Anne, although he is said to have been put off the marriage from then on. Henry and Anne then met officially on 3 January on Blackheath outside the gates of Greenwich Park, where a grand reception was laid out.19

    Eutace Chapys The King so went up into the chamber where the said Lady Anne was looking out of a window to see the bull-baiting which was going on in the courtyard, and suddenly he embraced and kissed her, and showed her a token which the king had sent her for New Year’s gift, and she being abashed and not knowing who it was thanked him, and so he spoke with her. But she regarded him little, but always looked out the window .... and when the king saw that she took so little notice of his coming he went into another chamber and took off his cloak and came in again in a coat of purple velvet. And when the lords and knights saw his grace they did him reverence.

    55AlisonY
    Maio 21, 2021, 4:51 am

    >54 cindydavid4: I think it undoubtedly was the key contributing factor to his demise. Henry no doubt felt foolish that all in sundry at court new what was (or, more precisely, wasn't) happening between him and Anne, and as relations settled between England and France he blamed Cromwell that he'd had to look to the Cleves dynasty for an alliance and matrimonial match. I'm sure Stephen Gardiner and Norfolk would have conspired to find another wound of Henry's to pick at in due course with a view to toppling Cromwell, but they certainly didn't waste any time making the most of this particular opportunity when it arose.

    56dchaikin
    Maio 21, 2021, 8:47 am

    Not related to above.

    p231

    Seven Wise Men, he tells Gregory: here are their sayings. Moderation in all things, nothing to excess (those two are the same, wisdom can be repetitious). Know yourself. Know your opportunity. Look ahead. Don't try for the impossible. And Bias of Priene: pleistoi anthropoi kakoi, most men are bad.

    A good summary of Cromwell’s outlook? (Minus the unprincipled parts?)

    57AlisonY
    Maio 21, 2021, 9:00 am

    >56 dchaikin: Yes, pretty much seems to some up his approach to life. Although you could argue he did try for the impossible (and was very successful, despite his background).

    58cindydavid4
    Maio 21, 2021, 10:44 am

    >55 AlisonY: I'm sure Stephen Gardiner and Norfolk would have conspired to find another wound of Henry's to pick at in due course with a view to toppling Cromwell, but they certainly didn't waste any time making the most of this particular opportunity when it arose.

    Oh I agree; if not that it was Mary and the Purple clothing...The King was sorry afterwards, like he was with Anne and Kathering and Wolsey. The man is nothing if not consistent

    was anyone else surprised who the traitor in the house was? I was at first, till I reread the other two and saw all the red flags. Interesting, in the author notes, he ends up dying in the same political boxing ring that killed his master.

    59AlisonY
    Maio 21, 2021, 10:56 am

    >58 cindydavid4: Interested in coming back to this point when the others have caught up, as I was surprised, and didn't notice any signs particularly.

    60cindydavid4
    Maio 21, 2021, 1:09 pm

    next time you read it, notice how often people are giving him warnings, this was even happening in the othe books. but yes I want to return to this point as well

    The ending certainly had me sympathizing again with him, and while I rushed through it the first time, I didn't this time and really liked how she ended it even if it felt a little like she didn't want to leave him, it worked in the end

    61sallypursell
    Maio 22, 2021, 4:09 pm

    I'm still plugging away at this, and am now on page 379. The chapter is "The Image of the King" about Hans Holbein and arranging for the portrait to be done. Jane has so far failed to conceive. It seems to me that Cromwell is not managing Henry nearly as well as heretofore. In addition, Mantel is just talking around the topic, seeming to be marking time. The war is at a hiatus. Henry is tired of being abstemious and wants new clothes. Cromwell has met and admired his fictional daughter with Anselma and wishes she would stay in England, and with him. I see why it is the general opinion that this isn't quite the tight book that the first two were. As Mantel divagates, I don't feel that I really understand what is happening. I can't say I love this at all.

    62cindydavid4
    Maio 24, 2021, 6:44 pm

    I felt that way the first time I read it, second time once I got more, this time I really got the whole thing, even when she diviates a bit; it really all is for a reason. Keep reading what you can, or ask us if you have questions.

    tho I agree, she really didn't want this to end....

    63AlisonY
    Maio 25, 2021, 6:42 am

    >61 sallypursell: I think it was around that stage that I glazed a little, but the narrative does tighten up again.

    64dchaikin
    Maio 26, 2021, 7:59 am

    “Life is short and art is long, the opportunity sudden and fleeting: experiment dangerous, judgment difficult.” p321

    65cindydavid4
    Maio 26, 2021, 1:39 pm

    I am now reading Jon Schofields The Rise and Fall of Thomas Cromwell and am at the part where Cromwell is trying to save Wolsely. Mantel has W never getting to York before he died. But here C was able to get him moved to York. Rather than keeping under the radar, Wosely started spending more money building and buying which did not sit well with others. Even Cromwell warned him to stop "for the love of god as I have many times done, I most hearily beseech your grace to have respect....and to refrain yourself for a season of all m atter of building more than mere necessity requireth.' Such restraint will cease ad put to silence those who speak il of him.He ureged him him to 'serve god and to learn to experiment how ye shall banis and exile the vain desires of this unstable world"When the king started to take W's land in york Cromwell wrote "This will be very displeasing to you but it is best to suffer it' Amazingly W didn't listen.....

    66dchaikin
    Maio 26, 2021, 2:48 pm

    >65 cindydavid4: i think Mantel did get Wolsey to York and had him die on recall. But perhaps I’m confusing Mantel with my googling.

    It is amazing what Wolsey tried to pull off in York, on RL, including looking for foreign intervention. MacCulloch says Cromwell couldn’t save Wolsey from himself.

    67cindydavid4
    Editado: Maio 26, 2021, 7:14 pm

    yeah I think he came close but died elsewhere. And Henry stole his tomb. I think MacCullough was right!

    68cindydavid4
    Editado: Jun 2, 2021, 6:44 pm

    Anyone still reading? I am enjoying the heck out of this Schonfield book; Lots about the start of the reformation and Chromwells role in it. Will have some surprising info. Stay tuned,need to edit

    69AlisonY
    Jun 3, 2021, 5:40 am

    >68 cindydavid4: Will look forward to hearing about that.

    70dchaikin
    Jun 3, 2021, 8:00 am

    >68 cindydavid4: Henry just started building Nonsuch, p483. In MacCulluch I’m learning how The Pilgrimage of Grace was focused on Cromwell and anger at his actions of religious reform and closing of monestaries, and how it almost took him down, and of how much power he lost afterwards. But he survived it and got a lot of bloody revenge.

    71cindydavid4
    Jun 3, 2021, 11:09 am

    >70 dchaikin: yep, BTW for an excellent read about the Pilgramage, you must read A Man on the Donkey Referring of course to Ashe .It takes a little bit at first to get comfortable with the characters and older style of writing, but once In I couldn't stop, After I read it I went back to read that section of this book - ohhh thats what they were talking about.

    72dchaikin
    Jun 3, 2021, 1:27 pm

    >71 cindydavid4: so much I don’t know. This is all new to me - in two books with slightly but significantly different takes, at once. Noting A Man on a Donkey.

    >70 dchaikin: to place myself better, maybe I should have mentioned that just yesterday Crum told Henry he is “the mirror and the light” of other rulers. The insecure need for outrageous flattering and the intolerance of this kingdom is really stunning.

    73Removido
    Jun 3, 2021, 10:32 pm

    Wondering if Mantel makes any mention of Henry 7 (father of Henry 8) and his antagonism of the monasteries.

    In many places, the monasteries had purchased land and real estate in town and claimed authority over anybody living there. That meant that they could charge rents and tithes and send monk thugs out to collect or throw people out. The monastery at Chester was one of the worst offenders in this regard.

    Henry 7 got wind of what was going on and reviewed the original monastic charters. He decided that the abbots were entitled to controlling only the lands they were granted in the charters and could not just buy up property wherever they wanted and claim jurisdiction there. Henry then claimed the properties that the monasteries had purchased, which provided a nice little revenue stream. It also made him very popular with the people who were sick of the monks shoving them around. Win-win.

    Abbots complained to Rome, of course, and envoys were sent. According to one story, every time the envoys showed up at one of Henry's castles to confront him on behalf of the abbots, they were told the king had just left for some other estate. After traipsing around for some time and dealing with miserable winter weather setting in, the envoys went back to Rome.

    While he is something of an enigma, Henry 7 was apparently very good at these types of games, exasperating Rome by pretending to be studying the problem but never standing in open defiance. I keep wondering what the English Church might have looked like had Henry 8 had that kind of patience and subtlety.

    74dchaikin
    Jun 3, 2021, 10:57 pm

    >73 nohrt4me2: cool. I had no idea. I feel like Mantel’s H8 seems to come from the famous painting. Smart (in a way), but not subtle.

    75cindydavid4
    Editado: Jun 4, 2021, 4:09 am

    Yup so those who condemn Crumb did not realize this was not a new idea, and if H7 was doing it Im sure it gave his son something to consider. Also Wolsey was doing his shut downs and building colleges in top. Schonfield thinks that gave C the idea or at the very least it was a meeting of two minds. Also interesting in mirros and light she mentions a kinder way of doing this.k

    I still think (with 21 centuries hindsight ) that Anne could have been just divorced, did it before without the pope or set up nice and cozy for Ann after he let her go. And then there is the double speak he used to convict three men who may or may not be gilty. and he taught his boys how to do so as well as he will see shortly....

    and then there is the desectration of art and architecture that were damaged, destroyed or melted down. again back then they didnt realize these relics would be missed 500 years later. But Mantel and Schonfeild both make him a much more complex character, and may have done as others as his mentors did ; and money was the object after all was said and done

    I am curious tho about a historian named Fox that S denigrates frequently. who has gone the other direction it seemed. Making me wonder about reading some of his work, but maybe not

    76cindydavid4
    Jun 4, 2021, 4:10 am

    >72 dchaikin: forgot to warn you that the pilgamage that the author needed two books to tell the story. But for me they were easy for me to get through, twice

    >72 dchaikin: The insecure need for outrageous flattering and the intolerance of this kingdom is really stunning.

    mmmmmm, very curious.......as they say the more things change the more they stay the same (will remove if anyone objects)

    btw did someone really give him a leopard?

    77dchaikin
    Jun 4, 2021, 6:47 am

    >76 cindydavid4: h8 as trumpy? There are both some parallels (especially entitlement) and major differences (i don’t think h8 was a sociopath)

    78cindydavid4
    Jun 4, 2021, 8:16 am

    yes but I got called out when I posted something like this.

    I agree with you, just remembering his first cabinet meeting he made every one say something nice aboug him. gah

    79Removido
    Jun 4, 2021, 10:12 am

    >75 cindydavid4: Yes, the Dissolution was a cultural tragedy. Henry 7 did not desecrate holy sites or interfere with worship or the operation of the monasteries. Even if he had wanted to--and there's no reason to believe he was any kind of ardent crypto-Protestant--he knew that this could excommunicate the whole country, thus weakening his hold on power and his ability to make alliances.

    I corresponded with some Catholic ladies from Chester a few years ago about the shrine of St. Werburgh, which was a popular pilgrimage site in medieval Chester. They told me that at the time of the Dissolution, the cathedral staff knew that Henry's men were coming and that Werburgh's remains were thought to have been buried in secret on the cathedral grounds. The sarcophogus that housed her coffin was dismantled and spirited away. Later it was brought back to the cathedral and parts of it were incorporated into a new shrine built by the Anglicans in 1876.

    I visited a lot of little parish churches in Cambridgeshire that had remnants of medieval painted glass and small statues of saints and angels. The rector told me that people took things from the churches and stored them in their closets and under their beds. Then they displayed the denuded churches to Henry's men, pretending to be enthusiastic iconoclasts. Under Elizabeth, many of these things were taken out of hiding and quietly brought back to the now-Anglican churches.

    Elizabeth was a lot more like Henry 7 than her father, even looked more like him. Both grew up in fear of their lives at a young age, both had to worry about foreign plots against them, and both inherited a crown that was in debt. She was very pragmatic and knew how to play the long game.

    80AlisonY
    Jun 4, 2021, 10:18 am

    >79 nohrt4me2: That's really interesting - thanks for sharing.

    81cindydavid4
    Editado: Jun 7, 2021, 6:54 pm

    >76 cindydavid4: I wondered if someone really gave him a leopard, well possibly This is an old article but shows Thomas Cromwell's fun-loving side – the feasts, the wine and the gambling

    Documents reveal that he kept near to 100 horses, "a cage of canary birds" and greyhounds. "More unusual animals are listed in his accounts too," Borman writes. "…an elk from Lubecker, four live beavers from Danzig..."

    In his garden, he kept an exotic "strange beast". Quite what species it was is unclear. But it must have entertained visitors – and no doubt frightened them.

    82cindydavid4
    Jun 7, 2021, 6:58 pm

    I am getting frustrated with Schonfield - he is taking every issue that ever enemy ever placed against Crumb with a fine tooth comb. Right now its all about his involvement in Annes death. Im skipping pages because it all comes down to "in the opinion of the author Cromwell was not all bad, and when he was, there might have been a reason " Would have saved lots of pages without losing the interesting parts he has to show us. Ill keep on and post anything interesting

    83dchaikin
    Jun 9, 2021, 7:42 am

    Those little white petals surrounded by the big red ones on the book-cover rose have some more meaning after the whole Pole Courtenay family (the white rose family) are taken down.

    84dchaikin
    Jun 11, 2021, 11:28 pm

    I finished today, along with the biography I was listening to, Thomas Cromwell: A Revolutionary Life by Diarmaid MacCulloch. The end was such a slow inevitable winddown. It was interesting to see Mantel's spin, Henry noting Wolsey as a reason to not pardon Henry, and, further, to see Cromwell not get upset about that comment when he heard it. In Mantel's novel it was essentially true, Henry was right. In real history Cromwell pushed his religious agenda right under Henry's nose without Henry realizing it - and this has resulted in a huge influence on the way the Church of England evolved. So, maybe, given a change to swap Henry for Edward...have to wonder what Crum would do.

    Another thing i got out of MacCulloch was a sense of Cromwell's hot anger, lashing out against anyone, even very powerful people he needed. This is consistent with his arrest, which Mantel captures about the same as MacCulloch does. Many of the lines quoted, from Cromwell out loud, or supposedly out loud, to what he wrote Henry and to what Cranmer wrote Henry were pulled from the factual record, confirmed by MacCulloch, including Cromwell boast at home of his willingness to take his sword against Henry before contradicting his religion. And interesting blend of history and fiction.

    This was a slow book, bogged down by the amount of historical detail Mantel had to cover to maintain her commitment to keep us in Cromwell's head. I enjoyed it, and I think I will like it more down the road.

    85AlisonY
    Jun 12, 2021, 7:10 am

    Very interesting, Dan. I don't think his religious ideals were overly pushed by Mantel, so these real facts actually put some more weight behind his undoing.

    86dchaikin
    Jun 12, 2021, 6:28 pm

    >85 AlisonY: thanks. And I agree Mantel toned down his Evangelism, although it does come up. Historically he kept his name out of the reform, but continually selected and promoted Evangelicals he approved of to key post after key post, so it was always on his mind.

    87dchaikin
    Jun 12, 2021, 6:28 pm

    for anyone interested, my review is up: https://www.librarything.com/topic/330945#7528969

    88sallypursell
    Jun 19, 2021, 10:32 pm

    I haven't finished reading yet, after taking quite a long caesura due to a health problem. I plan to start reading again in the next few days, and I don't have that much to go--maybe almost 300 pages or so.

    89Removido
    Jun 20, 2021, 9:44 am

    >88 sallypursell: Feel better soon! I hope reading will be a restorative for you!

    90sallypursell
    Ago 8, 2021, 4:53 pm

    Just to let you know, I did finally finish this third book. I have very mixed feelings about it. I can't say I enjoyed watching Cromwell's every important moment until his death, and the galling mechanism of his downfall made me feel some anger on his behalf. I did admire the last scene, in which he walks to his death and then awaits the axefall. That was luminous.

    91AlisonY
    Ago 9, 2021, 5:47 pm

    >90 sallypursell: I think most of us glazed over a little at some point in the middle with all the detail, but I felt it was still a great read overall.

    92cindydavid4
    Ago 9, 2021, 8:27 pm

    yeah I think Mantel did not want her favorite character to go just yet. I wonder if she had any grief when it was over.

    93rhian_of_oz
    Dez 24, 2021, 3:10 am

    I finally finished - 6 months late!

    My general overall feel is that I didn't like this quite as much as the other two, but am still glad I read it. I think some of my reticence is that I kept hoping for a different ending. Despite, you know, history. Plus this one is much more introspective compared to the previous two which are relatively action-packed.

    Thank you everyone for participating and for your interesting view points and side readings that added so much to my own reading.

    94cindydavid4
    Editado: Dez 24, 2021, 8:02 am

    Glad you finished it! I think some of my reticence is that I kept hoping for a different ending. Despite, you know, history. Ha! I know the feeling. Sharon Kay Penman, one of my favorite HF writers told me that finishing the reckoning was so difficult for her, coz the history was staring in her face, and she couldn't change it. Told me she had some grief therapy while she was writing it!

    The introspective parts of the book could have drug it down; I do think some could have been cut (esp at the very end), but the view through Cromwells eye and mind made it so much more powerful for me.

    95dchaikin
    Dez 24, 2021, 9:13 am

    >93 rhian_of_oz: you get a persistence ribbon. Glad you enjoyed. Thanks for kicking this off and organizing it.

    96AlisonY
    Dez 24, 2021, 10:20 am

    I really enjoyed this group read, and well done for making it all the way through the last one, even though it sounds like it wasn't overly doing it for you.

    I generally enjoyed it, although she definitely could have trimmed it a bit, but the whole trilogy was a win for me.