Our reads in July 2021

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Our reads in July 2021

1dustydigger
Editado: Jul 14, 2021, 4:15 am

Another month,another pile of books and{hopefully} great plans.
Share your reads with the group

2dustydigger
Editado: Jul 25, 2021, 7:56 am

Dusty's TBR for July
SF/Fantasy reads
Eric Frank Russell - Sentinels from Space
Edgar Rice Burroughs - Pirates of Venus
Robert A Heinlein - The Man Who Sold the Moon/Requiem
E E Doc Smith - Grey Lensman
Maureen MacHugh - China Mountain Zhang
Larry Niven - Lucifer's Hammer
Anne McCaffrey - The Coelura
Anne McCaffrey - Rescue Run
Neal Stephenson - Seveneves

from other genres
Paul Gallico - Mrs 'Arris goes to Paris
Laura Childs - Shades of Earl Grey
L M Montgomery - Anne of Avonlea
Patricia MacLachlan - Sarah,Plain and Tall

3Sakerfalcon
Jul 1, 2021, 5:58 am

Just finished The first sister which is set in a pretty nasty future universe which seems to be perpetually at war and soldiers receive comfort from voiceless, nameless Sisters. It's well plotted and compelling, but dark.

Now I've started Machine by Elizabeth Bear, set in the same universe as Ancestral night which I really enjoyed, and an oldie, Rimrunners by C. J. Cherryh.

4Shrike58
Jul 1, 2021, 6:55 am

I should finish A Master of Djinn this evening. As for the rest of the month the line up is Black Sun, The Moons of Barsk, and Middlegame.

5paradoxosalpha
Editado: Jul 1, 2021, 12:25 pm

I'm nearly finished with On Blue's Waters, and I'll read further in The Book of the Short Sun this month. Other sf reading plans include 2001: A Space Odyssey and A Voyage to Arcturus. If you include fantasy, I'm also likely to get to Thomas Burnett Swann's Green Phoenix.

In non-genre reading, I've recently finished (and still need to review) the ufological classic Passport to Magonia and the graphic novel that resurrects the aborted Salvador Dali/Marx Brothers movie Giraffes on Horseback Salad.

ETA: My Other Reader is deep in PKD's In Pursuit of VALIS: Selections from the Exegesis.

6seitherin
Editado: Jul 1, 2021, 2:27 pm

Still working my way thru The Mists of Avalon, Neuromancer, and The Soldiers of Fear.

7ScoLgo
Jul 1, 2021, 2:37 pm

Currently e-reading The Tiger's Daughter. During the first third of this book, I had nearly dismissed the idea of continuing the series. Now at around 2/3, I'm re-considering as the story is getting a lot more interesting.

In print I am halfway through Wolfe's Soldier series. Just finished Part 2 of Soldier of Arete. Latro comes across as a mix of Severian and Sir Able of the High Heart. Like most all of Wolfe's first-person narrations I have read to date, the main character is an unreliable storyteller. In this instance, it can be attributed to brain damage instead of a possible character flaw, but it amounts to much the same thing for the reader. Either way, I'm enjoying this one greatly.

8Karlstar
Jul 2, 2021, 6:38 am

>2 dustydigger: Another great list!

>7 ScoLgo: I never did finish that series, I should probably go back to it. According to LT, I've read book 3, but I think I also read book 2, I must have borrowed it.

9Shrike58
Jul 2, 2021, 7:05 am

I did finish A Master of Djinn yesterday evening, and this series continues to give me as much pleasure as anything else I've read over the last few years.

10ChrisRiesbeck
Jul 2, 2021, 4:40 pm

Finished Homegoing and started A Man of Double Deed.

11RobertDay
Jul 2, 2021, 6:06 pm

Finished my re-read of Against a Dark Background, and was interested to see that I first read and reviewed it in 2010.

12daxxh
Jul 3, 2021, 8:41 am

Currently reading The Ministry For the Future, A Desolation Called Peace, Freedom and A Friend of the Earth. Not sure how I started so many books as only one was due at the library. I also have Project Hail Mary, A Call to Vengeance and Slow Fall to Dawn for this month.

>2 dustydigger:. I loved the Anne of Green Gables books as a child. Hope you enjoy them!

Finally, after two years of being in storage, I have all my books in my house. I found a few that I had forgotten I had. And I found a lot of Andre Norton books that I haven't read. I will be using the library a little less to catch up on my own books.

13justifiedsinner
Jul 3, 2021, 10:50 am

>2 dustydigger: I can relate to your problems with epic fantasy, most of it is dreadful. But have you tried Joe Abercrombie? I just finished The Blade Itself and it was very good. Long (500 pages), of course, but very readable.

14seitherin
Jul 3, 2021, 2:55 pm

finished The Soldiers of Fear by Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rusch. mindless comfort read.

doing a re-read 0f Velocity Weapon by Megan E. O'Keefe before I dive into the next book in the series.

15dustydigger
Jul 3, 2021, 4:13 pm

>13 justifiedsinner: The only Abercrombie I've read is Half a King with its typical fantasy tropes. I have looked at the blurb for The Blade Itself and saw a whole lot of stuff I know I wouldnt like! lol.Nope,I am a lost cause with those sort of reads,especially since I dont enjoy historical fiction,or war books,or torture,and am NOT a fan of the modern all shades of gray and heavily flawed characters.
I' m retreating back into science fiction where I am so much more at home :0)

16Stevil2001
Jul 4, 2021, 8:07 pm

Am about to start Zen Cho's collection Spirits Abroad, which I got through LT's ER program.

17iansales
Jul 7, 2021, 2:07 am

Currently reading Two Tribes by Chris Beckett, which is about both climate change and the Brexit referendum. With this and America City, which is about climate change, social media and Trumpian politics, I don't know of another person writing such topical sf.

18Stevil2001
Editado: Jul 7, 2021, 9:30 pm

Just started Black Sun, my first Hugo finalist.

19Sakerfalcon
Jul 8, 2021, 6:25 am

Finished Machine which was excellent in parts but let down by too much pointless internal monologue. Rimrunners was good too but the protagonist's constant focus on her love interest was frustrating.

Now I'm reading Catalyst gate which is great so far.

20Shrike58
Jul 8, 2021, 8:06 am

>18 Stevil2001: I'm currently reading that and I'm actually rather impressed. Roanhorse has significantly pulled up her game over what she's previously written.

21rocketjk
Jul 8, 2021, 1:16 pm

I just finished Glimpses by Lewis Shiner. Avon (via Avonova) published the book with a Science Fiction tag on its spine, and with a blurb on its cover saying it was a "Winner of the World Fantasy Award for Best Novel." I found it a very good novel, but it is neither science fiction nor fantasy, but a very good adult "coming of age" novel (the protagonist is pushing 40) with strong currents of magical realism. It's a book with strong themes about coming to grips with loss, the end of youth and the implosion of the counter culture. My longer review is here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/328303#7550171

Anyway, I post here to warn away folks who would expect a science fiction or fantasy novel from the cover marketing, or those with little tolerance for magical realism. Well, it's a pretty obscure novel, anyway, and already 30 years old, so maybe the warning's not really necessary. One can never be too careful, though! :)

But, on the other hand, I thought it was quite a good novel, so there's that. Cheers!

22AnnieMod
Jul 8, 2021, 1:24 pm

>21 rocketjk: The marketing is somewhat of an artifact of the time it was published in I suspect... Magical realism was almost always used for South American books (and other non-English ones) at the time - so if you wanted to say that it is not mainstream, it had to be SF or Fantasy by default - so quite a lot of novels that would be MR now were considered in the main genres. Or marketed there anyway. So not really surprised... And Fantasy had always adopted anything that has even a marginal connection to magic ;)

23Stevil2001
Editado: Jul 8, 2021, 1:59 pm

>20 Shrike58: Yes, Trail of Lightning was very much Not My Thing and I tend not to be into epic fantasy but I am digging Black Sun so far.

24rocketjk
Editado: Jul 8, 2021, 2:25 pm

>22 AnnieMod: Sure, that all makes sense. My point is, though, that it really is a mainstream novel in almost all of its aspects. So I'm not sure why they would have wanted to say that it was not mainstream.

A man in his late 30s struggles with personal demons, including a recently deceased but still despised father, a withering marriage and a feeling that his life is just drifting. Suddenly one day he conjures an imaginary version of the Beatles song, The Long and Winding Road, on his stereo (no strings and all the Beatles playing instead of only Paul at the piano). He not only conjures it, but gets it on tape. This leads to three longish episodes wherein the protagonist manages several similar feats, all to do with legendary "could have been" 60s albums that never got made, but in even more detail and in ever more intense manner. But the thing is, these episodes do not make up the bulk of the storyline, which takes place to a much greater degree in the character's present. It's all very well done, but I bet that in the early 90s, with 60s nostalgia in full roar, they could have sold a lot more copies of this novel from the "mainstream" shelves than in the SF/Fantasy genre sections. To the publisher's credit, the plot synopsis on the book's back cover gives a creditable summation of the plot, but I'd think that would have actually discouraged many readers browsing the Science Fiction section of their local store.

On the other hand, the "World Fantasy Award" is voted on by folks at the World Fantasy Convention each year. The Wikipedia page for the Award says, "The World Fantasy Awards are split into ten categories, including both awards for written works and for professionals in the field. Eligibility requirements are loosely defined: works must have been published in the prior calendar year, and professionals must still be living. All types of fantasy works are accepted, regardless of subgenre or style, though whether a given work is considered to be fantasy is left up to the discretion of the nominators and judges." (emphasis mine) The year Glimpses won, six other novels received votes, and I have not found (or looked very hard for) vote totals. But clearly, enough fantasy genre enthusiasts gave this novel their votes for it to win Novel of the Year, so there you have it. And that may well explain why AvoNova marketed their 1995 paperback edition in the way they did.

Well, that's one rabbit hole gone down! :)

Here's the referenced wikipedia pages:
The page about the award: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Fantasy_Award
The page about the novel category, including winners/nominated books list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Fantasy_Award%E2%80%94Novel

25AnnieMod
Jul 8, 2021, 2:30 pm

>24 rocketjk: Which was my point about the award - fantasy readers adopting the work makes it fair game (and for a lot of fantasy readers, magic means it is in). I had not been to a World Fantasy for awhile but last few times I was, it really was all-inclusive - if it can be called fantasy, it is called fantasy. Even when 3 different genres may fit the name better. :)

As for the mainstream/non-mainstream... there are the "literature" people that deplore anything that hints to genre. While that is slowly changing (not as fast as I wish it was), mark that as a mainstream novel in the 90s and it will be bashed - nostalgia or not. Give it to the genre readers? They'd like it - see the award :) Oh well... :) Now I want to read this novel...

26rocketjk
Editado: Jul 8, 2021, 3:56 pm

>25 AnnieMod: "As for the mainstream/non-mainstream... there are the "literature" people that deplore anything that hints to genre. While that is slowly changing (not as fast as I wish it was), mark that as a mainstream novel in the 90s and it will be bashed - nostalgia or not."

Well, sure, but does that crowd make up the bulk of the actual reading public? Plus, One Hundred Years of Solitude, built on magical realism, had been a big hit since the late 60s, and I never saw that novel sold as a fantasy novel.

I just found on online Publishers Weekly review of Glimpses, and it begins thusly:

"With Slam (1990), Shiner began the move away from his roots in science fiction towards the mainstream, a trend that continues in his latest effort. Here he adds a sci-fi touch to what is essentially a story of middle-aged angst."
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-688-12411-3

So that's a big part of the tale, I guess. AvoNova was evidently marketing the book to Shiner's SF fan base, whether or not the book was itself science fiction. And for the record, I wouldn't even say the book has a "sci-fi" touch. I'm not a regular enough science fiction fan these days to be sure of my ground, definition-wise, but I always thought there was generally some "science" included in the science fiction appellation, as opposed to fantasy, designation. There's no science here, in the space ship/warp drive/AI sense of the term. There's time travel, maybe (or maybe it's a hallucination), but no time machine. But, sure, fantasy, I guess, and I do appreciate your comments about the inclusiveness of the genre.

Anyway, this is a fun conversation. I don't really mind what they called the book, genre-wise. Just mostly curious is all, other than the fact that when I owned a used bookstore, I think I would have had a better chance to sell it more quickly in my "Literary Fiction" section, marketed on the cover as a book about rock and roll and the 60s, than in the "Science Fiction/Fantasy" section. On the other hand, I did eventually sell it from the SF/F shelves, so there you have it! (The customer read it, brought it back to the store, handed it to me and insisted I read it myself, as he knew I was a music lover. I'm regret that it took me seven years to finally do so.)

"Now I want to read this novel..."

Well, my work here is done, then. :)

Cheers!

27iansales
Jul 9, 2021, 1:55 am

>24 rocketjk: Shiner was a science fiction author - his first novel, Frontera, is set on Mars - and the three "lost" albums arguably qualify Glimpses as alternate history, which is usually considered sf. His subsequent novels have trod a similar line, although some are straight-up mainstream.

28Shrike58
Jul 9, 2021, 6:51 am

>23 Stevil2001: I actually rather liked Trail of Lightning, but I thought that Storm of Locusts was weak enough that it didn't fill me with any anticipation for Black Sun, but Ms. Roanhorse definitely has pulled up her game in this work (which I expect to finish this evening).

29rocketjk
Editado: Jul 9, 2021, 12:58 pm

>27 iansales: "Shiner was a science fiction author . . . "

Certainly. I understood that from the review snippet I quoted above.

"the three "lost" albums arguably qualify Glimpses as alternate history, which is usually considered sf. . . . "

Arguably, sure! :) Any further discussion on that score, though, would bring us to Plot Spoiler City (which, come to think of it, sounds like something straight out of a Thursday Next book). More seriously, if the folks in this group who know more than I do about the parameters of what's considered SF and/or fantasy (which is everybody in this group) are comfortable calling this book one and/or the other, that's certainly OK by me.

The only point I really meant to make is that, given the amount of time the novel spends with the protagonist in the contemporary real world trying to figure out his feelings about his recently deceased father and his crumbling marriage, which is around half to two-thirds of the storyline, if somebody picked up this book due to the Science Fiction tag on the spine because they were in the mood to read some science fiction, I'm not sure how satisfied that person would be with this book. So that's what I was trying to get at in terms of my original post here.

As mentioned above, I thought the whole thing was excellent, quite well done. But I didn't read it because I was looking for some science fiction. I read it because a customer in the used bookstore I used to own gave it to me as a gift because he knew I was a music lover.

Here's a photo of a first edition hard cover that I found online. Note that there seems to be no sf marketing about it at all, but rather the graphics play almost entirely to the 60s music theme (I don't know what's on the back of the dust jacket, though):
https://d3525k1ryd2155.cloudfront.net/h/766/405/1182405766.0.x.jpg

I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative about something you obviously know much more about than I do. I just get curious about the marketing decisions publishers make, genre-wise and for other reasons. All the best!

30RobertDay
Jul 9, 2021, 5:32 pm

Having taken a break from genre with some German history, I made a quick decision to pull something unread from the TBR pile because of its coming topicality: Wally Funk's Race for Space. In case some readers weren't aware, Mary Wallace (Wally) Funk was one of the Mercury 13 astronaut trainees who went through the same training regime as the Mercury 7 astronauts in 1961 until America decided that a woman's place was not in space. She has spent the years since then doing her best to prove America wrong. Jeff Bezos' first sub-orbital flight is taking Wally along as a passenger, thus getting her (just) into space at the age of 82.

I was pleased to see our own Ian Sales namechecked in the text for including Wally in one of his Apollo Quartet novellas.

31ScoLgo
Jul 9, 2021, 7:32 pm

>30 RobertDay: How did you like Wally Funk's Race for Space? I've been considering acquiring a copy.

I enjoyed the Apollo Quartet. Ian really got me with the ending of Adrift on the Sea of Rains. Did not at all see that coming.

32iansales
Jul 10, 2021, 3:38 am

>29 rocketjk: No argument intended :-) Shiner started out in heartland sf, but quickly drifted to the edges, and even outside the genre. His latest, a huge tome called Outside the Gates of Eden, which I've yet to read, is I believe mainstream.

33Shrike58
Jul 10, 2021, 8:05 am

>32 iansales: Back in the day I can remember Shiner commenting at a SF convention in the Washington (DC) area that your real goal as a writer was to transcend marketing and become your own genre.

34Shrike58
Jul 10, 2021, 8:08 am

Also, I finished up Black Sun yesterday evening and, on the whole, I liked it quite a lot; this I didn't necessarily expect. Then again, I found the second of the "Sixth World" novels to be a let-down from the first so fingers crossed! There's no denying that Ms. Roanhorse has pulled up her game.

35iansales
Jul 10, 2021, 9:52 am

>34 Shrike58: So has it reached the level that justifies the hype yet?

36RobertDay
Jul 10, 2021, 10:22 am

>31 ScoLgo: I'm enjoying it, because the author produces radio documentaries for the BBC, so the voice is one I'm very familiar with. I'm a bit puzzled by the structure, though; the book starts out with the story of how Wally Funk ended up on Lovelace's Women in Space programme, then switches to how the author found Wally Funk, and her visits to first interview her and then actually engage her as the front for a number of radio documentaries about women in the current NASA space programme. That Funk had a career in aviation beyond not becoming an astronaut has been touched on but not yet described and I'm waiting to read more about that. But I wouldn't let that stop you picking up a copy if you see it.

37Karlstar
Jul 10, 2021, 10:30 am

I just started Project Hail Mary, it looks interesting so far.

38ScoLgo
Jul 10, 2021, 11:42 am

>36 RobertDay: Thanks, Robert. I have ordered a copy & will try to read it soon.

39Shrike58
Editado: Jul 10, 2021, 1:42 pm

>35 iansales: Close...this novel certainly deserved to be in the Locus Awards category for best fantasy novel this year. My biggest rap on the post-apocalyptic "Sixth World" novels was lack of world-building, and Ms. Roanhorse is doing much better on that front. Her afterword suggests that she realized she had a lot more work to do or risk winding up being merely regarded as some sort of token.

40iansales
Jul 10, 2021, 3:01 pm

>39 Shrike58: I read her debut, Trail of Lightning, and thought it nothing special. It certainly didn't justify all the nominations, or explain all the nominations for her first short story.

41LolaWalser
Jul 10, 2021, 3:36 pm

>40 iansales:

I started reading Barry Malzberg's "Beyond Apollo" the other day, winner of some award or other, and page after page it was just beyond shit.

Book for book, I think women still have some way to go before their nominations/wins/etc. match the inexplicable adulation piled on dreck committed by men.

42LolaWalser
Jul 10, 2021, 3:37 pm

I mean, this author has already been hauled over coals in here, no? She's a young Native American author. She appeals to whom she appeals, which is how she got the nominations and the awards.

Give it a rest.

43SFF1928-1973
Editado: Jul 10, 2021, 5:18 pm

Esta mensagem foi removida pelo seu autor.

44LolaWalser
Jul 10, 2021, 4:18 pm

>43 SFF1928-1973:

Proving what?

45seitherin
Editado: Jul 10, 2021, 4:56 pm

fiished my re-read of Velocity Weapon by Megan O'Keefe. enjoyed it immensely again. started the 2nd book, Chaos Vector.

46SFF1928-1973
Jul 10, 2021, 5:20 pm

>44 LolaWalser: Proving nothing since I misremembered the title of the book I read. However if one can't be civil one should probably refrain from commenting on the forum.

47dustydigger
Editado: Jul 11, 2021, 10:56 am

Wonder of wonders,I finally found a Neal Stephenson book I actually enjoyed,could read 30 or 40 pages at a time,and which was almost a compendium of all the SF subgenres I like.
Snow Crash I found irritating and rather childish(sorry fans) The Diamond Age was so meh and bland for me that,though I read it in 2017, I havent a single recollection of any of it. Was it about nanotechnology? :0) Seriously, I had 3 years of serious health issues around that time including a stroke,and I was on seriously strong meds much of the time,dont know if that was involved. lol.But Diamond Age made no impression whatsoever
Anyhoo,I gave up on Stephenson.Last month I started Anathem and fled when NS went into one of his interminable descriptions of archaic machines in the insanely detailed cathedral descriptions. Couldnt bear it,already irritated and bored after 50 pages!
So imagine my surprise to find that Seveneves was hard SF,and full of delightful space engineering,world catastrophe,terraforming,robots,genetic engineering and lots of other good stuff. I read lots of early SF and am used to no characterization,and clunky writing,so was unfazed by his deficiencies there. NS still insists on using 10 words when one would do,but so much is happening,there are so many subtle hints of old stories I was kept fully entertained picking them out.. Very tense sad events at times kept NSs would be humour at a minimum too,so I read the 868 pages in 2 weeks! Wonders never cease.
Because I enjoyed the tropes I was also able to appreciate much more his wide rangeand philosophical bent in a much lighter way than say Anathem,and got a much fairer view of him.
But still I see it as a 3-5 read,and am not a full convert to NS.
But I may give Cryptonomicon a fair crack of the whip.But Anathem may have to wait years before I get back to it! lol.

48vwinsloe
Editado: Jul 11, 2021, 11:52 am

>47 dustydigger:. Seveneves is on my TBR shelf, and I am happy to hear that it is readable. I liked the earlier Stephenson, childish or not, when I read them at the time. But I found Anathem to be a total snore. I did enjoy Cryptonomicon, and found it to be the same sort of read as Reamde- fast paced and fun, like a summer blockbuster film.

49iansales
Jul 11, 2021, 12:00 pm

>42 LolaWalser:. No, Seriously, why should I? I often comment on writers and books when they're mentioned here. We all do. Why should some writers get special treatment?

Also, Roanhorse is not young - she turned 50 in March.

50Karlstar
Jul 11, 2021, 12:29 pm

>47 dustydigger: >48 vwinsloe: I too have Seveneves on my TBR shelf and it is likely to stay there for quite a while. I enjoyed Snow Crash, probably more than Diamond Age, I just think Snow Crash is a fun read.

I really, really like Cryptonomicon though! I'm a sucker for historical fiction.

I forced my way through Anathem, didn't really enjoy it. I just can't get through Quicksilver. I tried several times, just can't get through it.

51SChant
Jul 11, 2021, 12:43 pm

>47 dustydigger: So glad you've found one you enjoy!. I've always liked his stuff, including his lengthy digressions into more arcane matters. In fact I'm 150 pages into Reamde at the moment and loving every minute of it, and have Seveneves on my wishlist.

52Neil_Luvs_Books
Editado: Jul 11, 2021, 8:28 pm

>10 ChrisRiesbeck: I'm curious, what did you think of Homegoing? I was considering picking that up to read.

I just finished reading L. Sprague de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall and really enjoyed it. I found it to be just a fun read. Next up is The Sword of the Lictor by Gene Wolfe. I have wanted to finish The Book of the New Sun since reading The Claw of the Conciliator a few weeks ago and am looking forward to reading SotL and The Citadel of the Autarch.

53Kanarthi
Jul 11, 2021, 11:18 pm

>49 iansales:
It's pretty tedious. Whenever Trail of Lightning comes up in this group, you always mention that you're unimpressed and that you consider it derivative (three links as evidence). We all have books whose critical acclaim mystifies us, but plenty of people clearly enjoyed it quite a lot and considered it a cut above other urban fantasy works. I'm all for commenting on writers, but these constant, predictable comments from you haven't made for interesting conversation.

Anyways, I found A Desolation Called Peace rather disappointing in the end, and I probably won't continue the series. The characters all had clever, clever plans and far too many things went according to plan for a military setting. I'm starting The Ship Who Sang and having fun so far.

54dustydigger
Jul 12, 2021, 8:11 am

I got a bit confused(my normal condition really!) and mixed up titles in my mind,so I settled down to read about what I expected to be a tale of ancient China,so was bewildered to find myself in a New York which had become communist! Whaaa? Yep,confused China Mountain Zhang with Joy Chant's Red Moon and Black Mountain.
No problem,I found China Mountain good fun.
The protagonist was a bit annoying at first, but grew on me.Didnt really feel this was a ''mosaic'' book,we stuck to Zhang too much for that really,but I enjoyed it a lot. I found a similar vibe,in very different circumstances of course, to C J Cherryh in the Alliance series,swooping on the life of an often insignificant character in the overall view of history,but letting his interactions and aspirations be of massive importance,and we have to piece together the wider world around him for ourselves. Makes for fascinating riveting reading if you are a fan,looks like boring nonsense if you dont get it! lol.

55Sakerfalcon
Jul 12, 2021, 10:39 am

>45 seitherin: I'm reading Catalyst gate, the final book in the trilogy! I strongly recommend reading them back to back, as you seem to be doing, because O'Keefe drops you straight in to where the last book left off without a summary or referring back at all to previous events. I only read Chaos vector last year but there was a lot I had forgotten. I think it is a great series and will definitely reread it one day.

>54 dustydigger: I loved China Mountain Zhang!

56Karlstar
Jul 12, 2021, 12:53 pm

>55 Sakerfalcon: Are you trying to add to my TBR pile?

57seitherin
Jul 12, 2021, 12:59 pm

>55 Sakerfalcon: a friend on another board was reading Velocity Weapon and his reaction was much the same as mine the first time I read it when it first came out. decided i needed to do a re-read of it and about half way thru i decided i needed to buckle down and do the whole trilogy. of the 3 books i'm currently reading (2 daytime, 1 bedtime), Chaos Vector is the one i enjoy the most.

58ChrisRiesbeck
Jul 12, 2021, 2:29 pm

>52 Neil_Luvs_Books: I found Pohl's Homegoing to be passable. Maybe good to give your brain a rest between Wolfe novels.

59dustydigger
Jul 12, 2021, 4:40 pm

>52 Neil_Luvs_Books:
Neil,I loved Lest Darkness Fall too,great fun. I have actually obtained De Camp's Incomplete Enchanter which is crazy but hilarious. Good luck with the rest of Severian's diaries. I loved the books but ended up knowing less at the end than at the beginning! :0)
>58 ChrisRiesbeck:
Hmm,Chris,I have Fifth Head of Cerberus coming up soon,and am a little apprehensive,as Ursula Le Guin called it ''the uncertainty principle embodied in brilliant fiction''which doesnt sound an easy tome! lol. I may be seriously discombobulated when veering between the Enchanter and Cerberus,but my brain is already so addled none of you may even notice.........

60ScoLgo
Jul 12, 2021, 5:37 pm

>59 dustydigger: I will once again mention Alzabo Soup, (the link goes to page #2 of their discussion of The Fifth Head of Cerberus).

Alzabo Soup episodes are listed in reverse order, (newest first), so it's recommended to begin with pages 11-22 and work up the page from there. The guys tend to begin each episode with a lengthy off-topic discussion but it's easy to skip if things get too nerdy. Alzabo Soup is also chock full of spoilers so I always listen after having finished a Gene Wolfe book, as opposed to before or during.

61JacobHolt
Jul 12, 2021, 11:08 pm

>59 dustydigger: You might also be interested in the Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast from Claytemple Media: https://www.claytemplemedia.com/fifth-head. They break up the book into multiple episodes with a "no spoilers" approach, so it's possible to listen to the episodes as you work your way through the book.

62dustydigger
Editado: Jul 13, 2021, 4:03 am

Thanks ScoLgo and Jacob for the podcast info.As a rule I just muddle through and hope that rereads will gradually remove the clouds of noncomprehension with difficult books.(I'm ready for my 4th read of Ulysses,love it,and get more each time,but have staunchly avoided Cliff notes,as it were, and happily expect at least 2 more reads in my life, clouds clearing as I go)
But I think Cerberus could be the exception to prove the rule! :0)

63Sakerfalcon
Jul 13, 2021, 7:04 am

>56 Karlstar: Who me??? Never!

64paradoxosalpha
Jul 13, 2021, 10:34 am

I loved The Fifth Head of Cerberus, and my reread of The Book of the New Sun needed that for training purposes. I'm In Green's Jungles now and just amazed.

65RobertDay
Jul 13, 2021, 6:01 pm

Finished Wally Funk's Race for Space and very pleased I am to have read it. Quite apart from anything else, the author is obviously an sf fan of sorts; I've already mentioned her namechecking an author known to many of us, and later in the book she breaks the mould of jo0urnalists associating science fiction with the two media Stars (Trek and Wars), and references Stargate SG-1.

Now dug deep into the depths of the TBR pile and come up with Legacies. Not far in yet but not overly impressed; writing seems over-ornate, the text is peppered with alien words (in italics) in a way that breaks up the flow of the writing, and the book itself is set in a quite small typeface in big blocks of text that I find wearing to actually read. Well, we shall see.

66Stevil2001
Jul 13, 2021, 8:43 pm

I'm about halfway through Sarah Gailey's Tor.com novella Upright Women Wanted.

67ScoLgo
Jul 13, 2021, 11:53 pm

>50 Karlstar: I too gave up on Quicksilver on my first attempt. My second attempt was successful, and I attribute that to having read a non-fiction book in the interim: Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul: Church, State, and the Birth of Liberty. Roger Williams was a giant of early American history whose writings directly influenced the next generation, (Hamilton, Jefferson, Hancock, Franklin, etc). There is also a fair bit of English history at the beginning as Barry lays the groundwork for Williams' move to the new world. Anyway, the background that book provided really helped me to appreciate what Stephenson had done with The Baroque Cycle. It's true that Quicksilver, (book 1 of 8), contains a lot of setup and is therefore a bit of a slog. Things start to take off in The King of the Vagabonds and Odalisque. By the end of The System of the World, it all ends up tying in with the plot of Cryptonomicon.

>47 dustydigger: >50 Karlstar: Seveneves is on my TBR for this year. Amongst Stephenson fans, that book does not receive a lot of love. I plan to approach it with expectations lowered.

>54 dustydigger: China Mountain Zhang was an excellent read for me. Slow, deep, and moving.

>61 JacobHolt: Cool looking website. Unfortunately, I can't seem to access any of the 'Fifth Head' discussions. "404 - Not Found" when trying to download and no progress when streaming...?

>62 dustydigger: There is a lot to unpack in The Fifth Head of Cerberus. Just the first novella alone is full of hidden and double meanings, (as per usual for Wolfe). It's likely worth delving into some supplemental material if you are so inclined.

>66 Stevil2001: How are you liking Upright Women Wanted? I have it on the list for this year.

68Stevil2001
Jul 14, 2021, 9:05 am

>67 ScoLgo: Upright Women Wanted is okay so far. It is better than Gailey's River of Teeth, which I really did not enjoy, but it hasn't grabbed me either.

69RobertDay
Jul 14, 2021, 4:36 pm

>67 ScoLgo: Your errant 404 errors: just on an offchance, are you running a VPN to anonymise your personal browsing? There are some sites I try to access that give me a 404 error which require me to switch the VPN off.

70ScoLgo
Jul 14, 2021, 5:43 pm

>69 RobertDay: Thanks for the thought but I get the same result across a number of different devices, OSs, and apps. Also, other streams and downloads on that site work just fine - just not the Fifth Head stuff. It appears to me they have moved or deleted the content while leaving the front end in place, but maybe it is just me... are you able to access their Fifth Head discussions?

71Stevil2001
Editado: Jul 14, 2021, 10:46 pm

Now I am onto a book that is not sf, but is about it, A Handful of Earth, A Handful of Sky, a book about Octavia Butler's creative process. (I think. I've only read the-- somewhat overwritten-- intro so far.)

72dustydigger
Jul 15, 2021, 7:04 am

I've taken a break from tough reads for a week or two,and am enjoying old pulp shorts,from people like Edmond Hamilton and Lester Del Rey.Love the insouciant way the intrepid heroes whizz around in their old tin cans saving the girl and the universe from evil invaders. Armed of course with those essentials - a toolkit,a welding kit (for those dreadful meteors drilling holes in the ship) and ,naturally the ubiquitous slide rule. I have never actually seen a slide rule but was charmed to learn just how important they were to getting men on the moon. I loved it that when Buzz Aldrin was about to land on the moon he did his last minute calculations with his trusty slide rule!
Wow! I think one of the reasons I enjoyed Seveneves was that the engineers were pretty much cobbling things together. The only difference I saw was the addition of the smartphone and tablet to the toolkit.But they did have an inordinate among of welding to do! lol.
Spacers should always keep some slide rules tucked away. You never know when the electricity for the computer will break down,or you will be in space for a few 1000 years and you run out of batteries ;))No probs if you have your slide rule! Another benefit,it has no social media at all!

73Karlstar
Jul 15, 2021, 2:14 pm

Just finished Project Hail Mary, I really enjoyed it, did not want to put it down. Is it the greatest SF novel of all time? Not even close, but it was fun to read. >72 dustydigger: your comment reminded me of parts of it.

74RobertDay
Jul 15, 2021, 3:55 pm

>70 ScoLgo: Just tried it and I didn't seem to have any problems.

75Sakerfalcon
Jul 16, 2021, 4:42 am

Finished Catalyst gate, the conclusion to The Protectorate trilogy. This was a long, absorbing, twisting SF adventure that I will definitely read again.

Now I'm rereading Foreigner by C. J. Cherryh.

76andyl
Jul 16, 2021, 5:04 am

>75 Sakerfalcon:

Foreigner is the start of a long journey.

77Sakerfalcon
Jul 16, 2021, 6:37 am

>76 andyl: I've heard that the storylines fall into trilogies, so I will give the first 3 a go and see if I want to continue.

78Shrike58
Jul 16, 2021, 6:45 am

Finished off The Moons of Barsk yesterday evening. This time around the author's epic about the political and social conflicts of uplifted mammals post-humanity had a bit less charm for me and I was left with that "are we there yet" feeling. At some point there has to be a showdown relating to the sins that this culture is built upon.

79andyl
Jul 16, 2021, 6:56 am

>77 Sakerfalcon:

Yep more of less. There are ongoing stories going through the entire series but there are also arcs that are shorter that are usually around 3 books. The first time I tried to read Foreigner I found it too slow and unmemorable. Some years later I reread it and liked it much, much, better and have been keeping up with the entire series.

80vwinsloe
Jul 16, 2021, 7:48 am

>71 Stevil2001:. I'm putting that one on my wish list. Thanks for mentioning it.

81ScoLgo
Jul 16, 2021, 2:46 pm

>74 RobertDay: Thanks for letting me know. It must be just me then as it's still not working here. Oh well...

>77 Sakerfalcon: I have been reading the Foreigner series this year. I am about to embark on the sixth trilogy with book #16, Tracker. The second trilogy has been my favorite so far. Be warned: there is quite a lot of tea drinking throughout. ;)

82Stevil2001
Editado: Jul 16, 2021, 6:02 pm

I have started The Expanse: Origins. It's a comic prequel to the show, but James Corey is credited with the story, and it seems to fit with the books in broad strokes so far.

83seitherin
Jul 17, 2021, 6:05 pm

Finished Chaos Vector by Megan E. O'Keefe and started the 3rd book, Catalyst Gate. Still enjoying the story.

84Stevil2001
Jul 17, 2021, 9:32 pm

Am now reading Blindsight. Worried I am overhyped for it, but I am enjoying it so far.

85Karlstar
Jul 18, 2021, 6:29 pm

>75 Sakerfalcon: >76 andyl: Are you saying that if I re-started this series with Destroyer, I could read that and 2 more and have a fairly contained story arc? I've read the first 4 or 5 of that series but I borrowed some of them from a friend. I'm also not sure I'm committed enough to read the entire series, but I kind of want to get back into it.

86andyl
Jul 19, 2021, 3:05 am

>85 Karlstar:

I have read them all in order so can't judge.

They are not fully contained obviously because the core threads of the series are present throughout, and stuff introduced in a sub-trilogy will appear later. They feel like one long story to me. Destroyer itself is strongly connected to the previous couple of books, and what happened in those books drives why certain things happen down on the mainland. Whilst you may get a lot of that just from reading the third arc, I am noit sure that you will get the fullness of experience. BTW the second arc and in particular Explorer was what really sold me on the series and made me continue even when we had pure Atevi political thriller for a few books. It is the arc where Cajeiri starts to become a major character and along with Ilisidi and Bren Cameron they are the main foci for the series.

87ChrisRiesbeck
Jul 19, 2021, 7:24 pm

Finished A Midsummer Tempest and started Clarke and Baxter's The Light of Other Days.

88ScoLgo
Jul 19, 2021, 8:30 pm

Aidan Truhen's Seven Demons was not quite up to the same level as The Price You Pay, but I still really enjoyed it. It's a non-genre book that is very over-the-top in a gonzo type of way; lots of fun but not at all for the squeamish.

Next up in print is Wally Funk's Race for Space, which arrived in my mailbox this past weekend. I won't finish it before tomorrow's lift-off but the opening pages are already drawing me in. Fingers crossed for a successful launch (and return).

Also starting my next e-read: Amatka is a book I know absolutely nothing about.

89justifiedsinner
Jul 20, 2021, 10:29 am

>88 ScoLgo: Just viewed Wally Funk's trip into space, sixty years in the making. I hear she's also paid for a Virgin Galactic flight. She'll be able to do comparative reviews.

90seitherin
Editado: Jul 22, 2021, 1:07 pm

finished Catalyst Gate by Megan E. O'Keefe. really enjoyed the series. next up is Ancestral Night by Elizabeth Bear.

91Karlstar
Jul 23, 2021, 12:56 pm

>89 justifiedsinner: That's some expensive test driving! I know they are very different experiences, but she already went farther with Blue Origin than she will with VG. Good for her, glad she got to live her dream finally.

How was the book though?

92igorken
Jul 23, 2021, 5:09 pm

Finished Klara and The Sun. A fairly quick read, but I thought it was perhaps a tad too long for an essentially simple story as the uncanny narator occasionaly got on my nerves. As it was probably meant to. Otherwise excellent. Curious to find out whether it makes the Booker longlist.

93RobertDay
Jul 23, 2021, 5:19 pm

Finished Legacies. Clumsy writing and the ending was pretty obvious from about two-thirds in. On the other hand, Sinclair wrote the aliens convincingly by not over-describing them; indeed, I'm not so sure that the humans in the story were quite as human as the reader might believe.

Now having a break with some more spaceflight history: Moondust: In search of the men who fell to Earth. After which, I shall revert to genre (sort of) with The Amber Spyglass.

94dustydigger
Jul 24, 2021, 5:31 am

A very fraugh t week in RL,so I did a lot of comfort reading,particularly some Anne McCaffrey Pern novellas ,and Heinlein short stories. I know people get enraged about sexism etc in his works,but I still find a lot of his work lively and absorbing.
at the moment I am working my way through The Past Through Tomorrow. I am greatly tempted to read all of his juveniles as a guilty pleasure,but I am way behind on award winners etc for the year.
Stalled on Dhalgren a hundred pages in,after a month or more of struggling with it. Looks like a long slog,reading 10 pages at a time then putting it aside for weeks! lolI am bored by all the sex stuff,very dated now,and the SF content is rather small.At least with RAH I can hop off in the usual tin can for adventures,narrowly avoiding nuclear war as I go.Certainly more interesting than endlessly walking round the somewhat damaged streets of a town post apocalypse of some kind.Oh well,129 pages done, now a mere 750 to go!:0

95Stevil2001
Jul 24, 2021, 9:26 am

I have started Ken Liu's The Hidden Girl and Other Stories. Previously I read the trilogy of "Gods" stories from it, and now I am going back through all the others.

96Shrike58
Jul 24, 2021, 9:46 am

Am finally making progress on Middlegame; let's just say that it's interesting for now.

97bookwormist
Jul 24, 2021, 2:48 pm

Reading Gardner Dozois' (RIP) The Year's Best Science Fiction Thirty-Fourth Annual Collection. Also reading William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which reads almost like scifi but it unfortunately happened.

98Karlstar
Jul 25, 2021, 9:17 am

I finished The Cityborn, which I enjoyed more than I thought I would when I started. Sort of a YA Dystopian novel, but with a few twists.

Started and abandoned Alaric Thain's History of the 21s Century. Total waste of time.

I'm now working on The History of the Swedish People.

99anglemark
Jul 25, 2021, 11:08 am

100Karlstar
Jul 25, 2021, 1:13 pm

>99 anglemark: I guess I should have said working through or working on reading! :)

101anglemark
Jul 25, 2021, 5:56 pm

>100 Karlstar: Heh, I got that. I bolded the entire sentence to indicate what I was replying to, a habit I have picked up from Tim. It looks like I bolded just "I'm now working on" because of the touchstone. No, I'm just impressed that someone reads about the medieval history of my little country!

102paradoxosalpha
Editado: Jul 25, 2021, 11:20 pm

I've finished In Green's Jungles, and I'm taking a breather before the last book of the entire Solar Cycle. I'm reading A Voyage to Arcturus, and it's certainly as weird as was promised.

103Shrike58
Jul 26, 2021, 7:28 am

Finished up Middlegame yesterday, and with caveats (this puppy seemed a bit bloated), I'd read another story in this setting.

104Karlstar
Jul 26, 2021, 5:14 pm

>101 anglemark: I see, thanks! I don't mind when people nicely point out my horrible grammar or just plain writing errors.

105ChrisRiesbeck
Jul 27, 2021, 3:50 pm

106AnnieMod
Editado: Jul 28, 2021, 3:31 pm

I had been in series finishing mode this month:
Revenger - Shadow Captain was ok (middle book and it shows) and Bone Silence which was sloppy.

Earthseed - Parable of the Talents was definitely weaker than the first book.

And a novella that had been sitting on my shelves for awhile: The Burning Light by Bradley P. Beaulieu and Rob Ziegler which was a bit disjointed in places but worked just fine at the end.

Not sure what's next on the SF side.

107ChrisRiesbeck
Jul 28, 2021, 3:15 pm

>106 AnnieMod: Parable of the Talents worked well for me. I looked at your review and I don't disagree with it. It is indeed paced erratically. But the daughter's entries added an interesting perspective on her mother. I'm reading Mind of My Mind right now and both it and Talents are dedicated to Butler's mother.

108AnnieMod
Jul 28, 2021, 3:39 pm

>107 ChrisRiesbeck: I liked it well enough once I was past the first 1/4th but compared to the first, something was off. The daughter's entries were probably some of my favorite parts - and yes they added a layer to the mother. Had it been a standalone, I may have liked it more I suspect- it suffered in comparison with the first. Sometimes expectations cause a bit of disjointed response to a book :)

109SChant
Jul 29, 2021, 6:38 am

Just started This Fragile Earth by Susannah Wise, a 20-minutes into the future dystopia.

110Stevil2001
Jul 29, 2021, 7:21 pm

Finished The Hidden Girl and Other Stories. Liked it at first, but by the end I was burnt out on overly sentimental stories about fathers and daughters (or mothers and daughters).

Have now started my third Lodestar finalist, A Wizard's Guide to Defensive Baking.

111Sakerfalcon
Jul 30, 2021, 5:41 am

I've finished Foreigner and am proceeding to Invader.

>79 andyl: I too found Foreigner slow and overly introspective on first reading, but it was much better this time around.

112pgmcc
Jul 30, 2021, 5:46 am

I have just finished reading The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy for the first time. I just never got around to reading the book having watched the TV adaptation and the film version. I was at college when it first came out on radio, but I did not manage to listen to it then.

Of course, I could argue I was waiting for the 42nd anniversary edition before reading it. :-)

A bookshop employee friend was disgusted by her colleagues who did not understand the significance of a 42nd anniversary edition.

113Sakerfalcon
Jul 30, 2021, 5:54 am

A bookshop employee friend was disgusted by her colleagues who did not understand the significance of a 42nd anniversary edition.
Quite right too! A shocking lack of knowledge on their part!

114pgmcc
Jul 30, 2021, 5:58 am

>113 Sakerfalcon: It warrants a strict disciplinary response. Their Continuing Professional Development plans will need to be reviewed in light of such a lacuna.

115Sakerfalcon
Editado: Jul 30, 2021, 7:48 am

>114 pgmcc: I can see a diet of Essential Reading being mandated!

116pgmcc
Jul 30, 2021, 8:55 am

>115 Sakerfalcon:
Hmmmm! Perhaps we need to have a thread to establish that Essential Reading list.

117paradoxosalpha
Editado: Jul 30, 2021, 10:45 am

118anglemark
Jul 30, 2021, 10:58 am

The problem is, it's not very good and not very funny.

I will now unlist my name from the phone bok and talk to the police about receiving protection, I know. I will take this argument to Pro and Con instead, where it properly belongs.

119pgmcc
Editado: Jul 30, 2021, 11:13 am

>117 paradoxosalpha: Excellent! The list prompted me to pick up my Collected Fictions and find The Library of Babel.

>115 Sakerfalcon: You need to look at >117 paradoxosalpha:'s suggestion.

120pgmcc
Jul 30, 2021, 11:13 am

>118 anglemark:
LibraryThing is a broad church. There is room for people holding all sorts of views.

All the same, I do think your ideas of removing your name from the phone book and seeking police protection are probably well advised. You might also consider moving house, a change of name, some plastic surgery, and possibly having a DNA transplant. You never can be too careful.

121Sakerfalcon
Jul 30, 2021, 11:33 am

>117 paradoxosalpha:, >119 pgmcc: Great start! The Calvino is a favourite of mine.

122bnielsen
Jul 30, 2021, 11:58 am

>118 anglemark: I have your address from previous years xmas card exchange. :-)

123pgmcc
Jul 30, 2021, 12:00 pm

>118 anglemark:, look at >122 bnielsen:. I warned you to move.

124paradoxosalpha
Jul 30, 2021, 12:03 pm

LT lists are collaborative. Anyone can add to https://www.librarything.com/list/43133/all/#

125SarahAwa
Jul 30, 2021, 12:19 pm

Laughing my way through The Cosmic Turkey by Laura Loomis :)

126dustydigger
Jul 31, 2021, 3:10 am

>120 pgmcc: LOL! If such actions are necessary for a lukewarm reaction to HHG what on earth must I do if I admit that I found Dune barely readable,far too bloated (and boring)disliked Paul Atreides character,and never like political conspiracies or overdetailed religious stuff.I read Dune in 1968 and have never wanted to reread it. I was reading Lord of the Rings at the time,and the deserts of Araikis couldnt compete with Middle Earth's perils.
So I may have to relocate to the Moon for safety.......

127haydninvienna
Jul 31, 2021, 4:16 am

I did and do greatly enjoy HHGG. On the other hand I agree with >126 dustydigger: that Dune is barely readable (and if the sequels are worse they don't bear thinking about). Sturgeon's Law is right on the money--trouble is, it's impossible to agree about what parts of it are the 90% that's crap.

128igorken
Jul 31, 2021, 5:52 am

>126 dustydigger: Since there's about to be a new thread, I might as well... I tend to agree about most of Dune's faults (though I quite enjoyed the first book). Lord of The Rings though... now there's an example of a bloated book with boring characters! ;)

129pgmcc
Jul 31, 2021, 7:54 am

Wow! This discussion has certainly prompted a lot of confessions.

>126 dustydigger: Are you sure the Moon is far enough? :-)

>126 dustydigger: & >127 haydninvienna:
I only read Dune in 2018. I really enjoyed it. Unlike dustydigger, I like political conspiracies. I think Dune was helped in my case by my having read The Leopard only a few months before reading Dune. The Leopard is historical fiction set in the time of Garibaldi's revolution and the unification of Italy. There is a lot to learn in it and I saw Dune as a similar story set in space. I found a lot of real-life lessons in both The Leopard and Dune. The other key message Frank Herbert delivered in his story was the importance of water and how we are threatening the environment. While the book is over fifty years old it is strong on this message and, according to one article I read, was Herbert's main reason for writing the book.

I have not read any of the later books for two reasons. Dune was sufficient for me. It was one book that stood on its own and did not need a sequel. Secondly, the comments of those who have read the sequels suggest that the sequels are not as good. Dune, a book that has sequels that it does not require, joins other books and films with, in my opinion, unnecessary, and in some case damaging, sequels. Examples that jump to mind are K-Pax, Ringworld, Rendezvous with Rama, and The Matrix. I would not say the sequels to The Matrix caused any damage, but I thought the ending of the original film was a good point to stop. (I suspect I too need to book a ticket to an off-world colony after those remarks.) The sequels to K-Pax did damage the original book. If you read the introduction by the author he states that he did not want to write sequels but that he was persuaded to to earn more money. K-Pax II was basically a re-run of the original book. K-Pax III did actual damage. The first book, and the film, left one with a sense of awe and mystery. K-Pax III destroyed the awe and the mystery.

>128 igorken: Lord of the Rings is probably the first fantasy I read. I did not read it until I was about twenty-two years old. I loved it and thought I would try another fantasy novel immediately afterwards. I started with "Lord Foul's Bane" and ended up reading the two trilogies in "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever" in the hope that the next book would redeem the earlier books. After reading six books that I did not enjoy at all (yes, I should have seen a shrink at that stage) I learned the lesson to not waste precious minutes of my life reading books that I was not enjoying. "Stephen R. Donaldson" is on my "never-read-anything-by-him-again" list. I considered that Thomas Covenant suffered by comparison to Lord of the Rings as I had just finished the latter and Donaldson could not match Tolkein. After reading six of his books and finding no improvement in the writing, nothing endearing about his characters, no character growth, and no real story, I concluded that, "No!", his books are just not worth my time. One good thing did come out of the "Thomas Covenant" books, and that was the game where you open at any page of the chronicles and count the adjectives. His use of adjectives was prolific and hilarious. I can no longer play this game as I threw away my copies of the chronicles.

>126 dustydigger:, you have to remember that the original reaction to the lack of knowledge about HHTG was a reaction to that lack of knowledge in a bookshop professional, hence the importance of a Continued Professional Educaton programme. ;-)

130Maddz
Jul 31, 2021, 8:18 am

>129 pgmcc: I first read Dune in the mid 70s; I remember passing it to my father, who read a bit and said 'But this is Arab culture!'.

I hated Thomas Covenant - I purchased and read the 1st 3, and later read the 2nd 3 from the library. At that point, the first 3 got chucked out. I just found the story too depressing; I'm happy with grimdark (The Black Company anyone?), but found TC unrelenting. However, having said that, I liked the Mordant's Need duology well enough at the time, although a recent re-read made me want to kick her in the butt. His short fiction is much to be preferred to his long fiction.

131vwinsloe
Jul 31, 2021, 9:14 am

>126 dustydigger:, >127 haydninvienna: Heresy!

>130 Maddz:. Kudos to your Dad. It was only comparatively recently that I realized that Frank Herbert had appropriated Arab culture and passed it off as his own world building. My appreciation of the novel diminished considerably.

132pgmcc
Jul 31, 2021, 9:29 am

>130 Maddz:
Having read Dune in 2018 for the first time I spotted the Arab words and concepts being used as we have been listening to them on the news for the past twenty years. It did not take away from the story and the themes for me.

133daxxh
Jul 31, 2021, 9:35 am

>129 pgmcc: >130 Maddz:
I am enjoying this latest discussion. I thought I was the only person who hated the Thomas Covenant books. I did like Donaldson's Gap Cycle though I have been hesitant to read anything else by him. I don't like his characters much.

Dune is my favorite book. I first read it when I was 12 and loved the environmental message in it. I read it again in college and figured out that the whole culture was Arabic but I still loved the environmental message. I read it again as an adult. I still loved the book. I got a lot more out of the politics and religious fanaticism as an adult (vs the clueless 12 year old).

I have never read The Lord of the Rings. I couldn't get through The Hobbit. Boring - too wordy. I was told to skip that one and go straight to the trilogy. I just haven't been able to do that as those books were written by the same guy who wrote the first book I just could not finish.

134igorken
Jul 31, 2021, 9:42 am

>129 pgmcc: Hah; I must've read Thomas Covenant around the same time as I first read Dune. I don't recall much of it, other than that it was depressing and boring. For some reason I also finished the entire first trilogy. In those days I still finished every book I started... now I no longer have such qualms.
I bought those books when I was a teen (I still had the time and patience to read sprawling fantasy series back then) and in fact I only threw them out during spring cleaning this year.

135anglemark
Jul 31, 2021, 10:05 am

Are we confessing our guilty displeasures?

136paradoxosalpha
Jul 31, 2021, 10:09 am

>131 vwinsloe: Frank Herbert had appropriated Arab culture and passed it off as his own world building

Huh. I was on the contrary impressed that he used Arab cultures (among others) as a referent for his world-building, instead of confining himself to the typical sfnal Western secularism.

137vwinsloe
Editado: Jul 31, 2021, 1:24 pm

>136 paradoxosalpha:. Depends on when you read it for the first time, I guess. I read it as a teenager in the 1960s, probably when it first came out. It was hailed as a triumph of complete imagination, and I truly believed that Frank Herbert invented a culture, language, religion, political system, and ecology out of whole cloth. It was my favorite book. I still love the book, but I am no longer so impressed with the author. I think that the Broken Earth trilogy has knocked it off my personal pedestal.

138SChant
Jul 31, 2021, 10:20 am

>126 dustydigger:, >127 haydninvienna: Well this is discouraging. I failed a couple of times to read Dune many years ago, and was trying to psyche myself up for a 3rd attempt and now you've just blown it again for me. Ah well, another couple of years won't hurt!

139Maddz
Jul 31, 2021, 10:21 am

>131 vwinsloe: It's far-future science fiction not fantasy, and the characters are all human so I wouldn't call it cultural appropriation at all. Think about it - there's been a human diaspora and the likelihood is that communities traveled together and settled in the same places. Julian May's Galactic Milieu has the same theme - cultures are assigned planets. Is George Alec Effinger's Marid Audran series cultural appropriation when it's set in an alternate history where the Ottoman Empire survived?

If it was something like Bradley Beaulieu's Song of the Shattered Sands series, then yes, absolutely cultural appropriation (I thought the first book pretty bad by the way so haven't read any more). Quite apart from anything, it was an unholy mash-up of pre- and post-Islamic culture with a fantasy overlay. Alternatively, if the Fremen were desert-dwelling aliens with an Arab culture, then yes, you could call it cultural appropriation although I'd more likely call it a short cut to enable the reader to understand the alien's motivations. After all, not everyone can write believable aliens like C J Cherryh.

And no kudos to my Dad - he was Arab; of course he'd recognise a fictional version of his own culture. Born in Alexandria, raised in Cairo, his family were part of the Egyptian Belgian community. My parents met when my English mother worked in Cairo in the 1940s and 1950s.

140vwinsloe
Jul 31, 2021, 10:28 am

>139 Maddz:. Oh, my criticism is not so much that it is "cultural appropriation" as the term is used today about someone from a dominant culture cashing in on the culture of oppressed peoples. It was just that I was young and naive and truly believed that Frank Herbert was a genius who made it all up, and the media hype about the book bolstered that belief.

141Shrike58
Jul 31, 2021, 10:48 am

>140 vwinsloe: I ran across a comment that Herbert, at one point, admitted he lifted a lot thematically from the writings of Ibn Khaldun. It was a throwaway comment from Ibn Khaldun: An Intellectual Biography.

142Maddz
Jul 31, 2021, 10:57 am

>140 vwinsloe: I wouldn't have called the Arabs at the time an oppressed culture at all. To be honest, I would say the hype was a reflection of American small-town attitudes. I wouldn't know - I didn't encounter the book until the early 1970s (my parents split up in 1975 and it was before that).

I don't care for the modern down on cultural appropriation - it's been happening throughout recorded history one way or another and probably ever since humanity became conscious of tribal differences. Acknowledge your borrowing, give credit, and move on.

Yes, it can be lazy when an author doesn't bother to file the serial numbers off but as a referential short-cut it's fine especially if you are constrained for word count or space. It helps the immersion; there's nothing more jarring as a reader than trying to remember whether the blue-skins are the ones who trade in XXXX or whether the green-skins worship YYYY, when if the blue-skins act like Romans and the green-skins act like Imperial China, then the reader can keep them straight and move on.

143vwinsloe
Editado: Jul 31, 2021, 1:59 pm

>141 Shrike58: Fascinating. I should read more about that. Thanks.

>142 Maddz:. Yes, that was my point. In the 1960s, the world was not so globally aware and not many people in the US (where I am from, although not a small town) let alone a teenager (which I was), knew anything about Arab culture. There was not any widespread acknowledgement by the author or others that this was the background for the Fremen of Arrakis in Dune.

As far as the "modern down on cultural appropriation," I think that there are certainly degrees. Near genocide and then appropriation of cultural stereotypes as your mascot is highly insensitive.

144pgmcc
Jul 31, 2021, 2:12 pm

>130 Maddz: I hated Thomas Covenant - I purchased and read the 1st 3, and later read the 2nd 3 from the library.

I am glad I am not the only one to have read six books that I disliked. I learned my lesson and have never done the same again.

145andyl
Jul 31, 2021, 2:56 pm

>142 Maddz:

It is interesting. The film Lawrence of Arabia was out just before Dune was written, and apparently Herbert had read Seven Pillars of Wisdom. I think there are at least some parallels (but also some differences) between Paul Atreides and Lawrence. I would have thought that quite a lot of people would have been aware of T.E. Lawrence and his story - either the semi-romanticised version of the film or his own account. But maybe not a young teen in small-town America.

146Karlstar
Jul 31, 2021, 4:12 pm

>129 pgmcc: >130 Maddz: I am a big fan of the Thomas Covenant books, at least the first 6. You two may have to start packing!!

If it is my turn to confess, then I have to say that I've never found Brave New World to be all that interesting.

A friend of mine recently asked me to read a book that someone else had asked him to read. I got through 5 chapters and said 'nope'!. It was just flat out terrible. Time is too short to read something that poorly written. Unless it is my wife asking.

147haydninvienna
Jul 31, 2021, 4:15 pm

>146 Karlstar: hah! An occasional source of friction between Mrs H and myself is that I don’t read a book she likes. Big trouble when she wanted me to read Life of Pi and I DNF’ed it after a couple of chapters.

148Karlstar
Editado: Jul 31, 2021, 4:19 pm

>124 paradoxosalpha: What's the criteria for adding books to the list?

Looking at the list, I appear to have committed a scifi book collector crime - I don't actually own a copy of 2001: A Space Odyssey! I have 2010 and 2061, but not the original. I've read it multiple times, which either means my copy has been lost or I borrowed it the previous times.

149pgmcc
Jul 31, 2021, 5:33 pm

150paradoxosalpha
Jul 31, 2021, 8:03 pm

>148 Karlstar: What's the criteria for adding books to the list?

Entertainment value? I figured it was pseudo-remedial reading for someone who didn't "get" the joke about 42, and could thus include humorous sf, numerology, criticisms of workplace culture, or anything else that seemed remotely relevant. By ultimate extension: any book about "life, the universe, and everything." But I don't want to oversimplify the problem.

151Karlstar
Ago 1, 2021, 10:06 pm

>150 paradoxosalpha: That's a very grand scope, I'm not sure I'm up to the task! It dos remind me of a book I read a while back about the heat death of the universe though.

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