TFS: In Chancery, (Interlude) Awakening,

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TFS: In Chancery, (Interlude) Awakening,

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1Urquhart
Fev 26, 2009, 3:54 pm

Esta mensagem foi removida pelo seu autor.

2Cecilturtle
Mar 24, 2009, 7:23 pm

I'm almost finished part II of In Chancery. I was a little surprised at the time shift but once I got used to it, I got right back into the story.
Before I give a more complete impression, I wanted to share a quote which I feel sums up the saga very well (and I don't want to lose it as I got along!) - it's from young Joylon regarding Jolly's signing up for the Boer War: "I don't believe I should have done it at your age - too much of a Forsyte, I'm afraid. But I suppose the type gets thinner with each generation. Your son, if you have one, may be a pure altruist; who knows?" A touch of hope!

3Cecilturtle
Mar 28, 2009, 1:23 pm

I enjoyed the sequel as much as The Man of Property. The characters are more defined, the family lines better delineated and there is a nice flow from one generation to the next. There are so many things one could talk about, everything from the social commentary, the views on and laws of divorce, character development with Soames as mean as ever, the dispute between Jolly and Val, etc.
Two things struck me however:
1. A comment by young Jolyon: "So the feud went unto the third generation - this modern feud which had no overt expression!" Really? I didn't realize that old Jolyon and James had any misunderstanding... did I miss something besides sibling rivalry? I comes up again in To Let so obviously something happened - I would love to explore this saga from a genealogical psychology point of view!

2. The Passing of an Age - Whether it was Mafeking or Queen Victoria's passing, this time is a clear marker for the Forsyte family - not only is the older generation dying, but values are changing: "...all radicals and socialists. They want our goods." says George Forsyte. It reminded me of The Leopard with Sedàra taking over the Prince's world. I do feel Salina was much more gracious about it than Soames however!

4kjellika
Editado: Mar 30, 2009, 3:01 pm

I haven't started In Chancery yet (I will soon), but I've got a question on the title (I can't find "chancery" in my English-Norwegian dictionary): What IS chancery? The Norwegian title is 'Skilsmisse' (= Divorce), maybe because there isn't any Norwegian word for 'Chancery'.

I found something in my English-English dictionary:
in chancery: a) (of a suit) pending in a court of equity. b) in an awkward situation.
I'm not sure if this explanation made me any wiser.
Could anybody explain this term in a more "popular" way? I guess I'll learn more as I read along, but the difference between the Norwegian and the English title confuses me ;(

5geneg
Editado: Mar 30, 2009, 6:51 pm

K, did you read Bleak House with us? It was centered around a court of chancery. It may refer to a situation stuck in amber.

6Cecilturtle
Mar 30, 2009, 8:31 pm

I had the very same question and did not find a terribly conclusive answer. From what I can gather "chancery" is a high court which I figure refers to the divorce procedures both Soames and Winifred are considering - a definitely uncomfortable position to be in at the time with many social repercussions. This fits in with geneg's explanation of being stuck.

Interestingly, the French title is Aux aguets which means "to be on one's guard/on the look-out" - there is a sense of impending danger. I find this places the emphasis on Irene and Jolyon trying to escape Soames. It is also mindful of the dispute between Val and Jolly, not to mention Winifred's dealings with Montague. A lot of mistrust...

7kjellika
Editado: Mar 31, 2009, 8:44 am

>5 geneg:,6
Thanks for your comments.
I think b) is the right term to use translating it into Norwegian.
Then the Norwegian title will be "En vanskelig situasjon" (= 'A difficult situation' i.e.~ 'in an awkward situation').
And: Well.... A divorce is often an awkward situation, so ....(??)

8rfb
Editado: Mar 31, 2009, 2:59 am

> 4, 7

I think both translations are right; it seems to be a play on words Galsworthy enjoys to employ (and actually uses quite a lot in In Chancery). And it is indeed quite an appropriate description for the situation of many of the characters in that part of the book.

Some explanations I found:

"Chancery" is an invention of English law, carried over to other legal systems having their foundation in the English legal system, such as the US one. (...) Basically Chancery matters covered areas which back in history the common law did not - trusts, care of "lunatics", minors, matrimonial issues, certain matters relating to the land, etc. etc.
leo.org

(keyword "equity"):
4. a. In England (...), the distinctive name of a system of law existing side by side with the common and statute law (...), and superseding these, when they conflict with it.
The original notion was that of sense 3 ("general principles of justice to correct or supplement the provisions of the law"), a decision ‘in equity’ being understood to be one given in accordance with natural justice, in a case for which the law did not provide adequate remedy, or in which its operation would have been unfair. These decisions, however, were taken as precedents, and thus ‘equity’ early became an organized system of rules, not less definite and rigid than those of ‘law’; though the older notion long continued to survive in the language of legal writers, and to some extent to influence the practice of equity judges. In England, equity was formerly administered by a special class of tribunals, of which the Court of Chancery was chief; but since 1873 all the branches of the High Court administer both ‘law’ and ‘equity’, it being provided that where the two differ, the rules of equity are to be followed. Nevertheless, the class of cases formerly dealt with by the Court of Chancery are still reserved to the Chancery Division of the High Court.
oed.com

And also see wikipedia.org.

9Urquhart
Mar 31, 2009, 6:19 pm


A quote:

'A student of statistics must have noticed that the birth rate had varied in accordance with the rate of interest for your money. Grandfather ‘Superior Dosset’ Forsyte in the early nineteenth century had been getting ten per cent. For his, hence ten children......'

Was it Marx that said, among other things, that it is the economy that is the great determiner?

And yet people may wish to view how much economics impacts the book's characters from start to finish.

10shinyone
Abr 3, 2009, 9:14 pm

I am not done with In Chancery yet but any sympathy I felt for Soames in The Man of Property is long gone!

I still don't know whether I like Irene, but I feel that I probably should, since Old Jolyon and Young Jolyon think so highly of her and I like them!

It is interesting to see the younger generation move into the foreground, and I can't wait to see how this new stage of the feud plays out.

11rfb
Abr 11, 2009, 4:07 am

> 9:

I wonder whether Forsyte had read The Buddenbrooks - it was one of several aspects that reminded me of that book...

12kjellika
Editado: Abr 13, 2009, 1:11 pm

> 11
I hope we will take The Buddenbrooks as a group read later. I assume you've read it. I've got it on my shelves, but haven't read it yet. Is it that great as some readers say?

And now a little curiousity (for me) from In Chancery.
I'm reading In Search of Lost Time and in volume 4 there were quite much about 'The Dreyfus Affair' and it is also mentioned in Galsworthy's saga, so I thought I would learn a little more about it. Among other sites I found this article from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair

Literature is exciting ..............

13kjellika
Abr 14, 2009, 4:25 pm

I think I'll have to comment a little on IN CHANCERY, PART ONE, Chapter Six: "NO-LONGER-YOUNG JOLYON AT HOME".
The Norwegian title of this chapter is: "UNGE JOLYON I SITT HJEM" (i.e.: Young Jolyan at Home). As you might see, the English title is more informative, but I understand the translator: It's difficult to find a good Norwegian phrase for "no-longer-young", so I assume just "young" is better. Languages are curious matters.

And I think the whole chapter six is very informative. We learn much about many characters and Galsworthy uses a retrospective technique to tell us what has happened earlier:
"But here the Forsyte Saga must digress again ... ". Here we learn what happened after the last sentences of the interlude "Indian summer of a Forsyte". Great section.

There are some nice quotes as well:

"His drawings fetched high prices. Specializing in that one medium with the tenacity of his breed, he had 'arrived' - rather late, but not too late for a member of the family which made a point of living for ever."

" 'Quite right !' he had thought. 'We should all like to go out in full summer with beauty stepping towards us across a lawn.' " ((No-longer-)young Jolyon thinking of his father's (old Jolyon's) death).

" 'That chap could never forget anything - nor ever give himself away. He's pathetic !' " (Young Jolyon about Soames).
I agree. Do you?

14rfb
Abr 16, 2009, 6:03 am

> 12 It's wonderful. I've already read it three times, and I definitely will do so again in a couple of years. Let me know if you decide to give it a try, I'm sure there's a lot we could talk about.
And should you ever come to Northern Germany, don't miss the Buddenbrookhaus in Lübeck, one of the best museums of literature I've ever seen (but I would recommend to read the book first).

15kjellika
Editado: Abr 16, 2009, 10:55 am

>14 rfb: Thank you for your info.
I'll have to finish some books I'm currently reading, and even read some other books as well, but I'm sure I'll read The Buddenbrooks in not too many months, especially because you say it's wonderful. I believe you, and I've got two Norwegian editions on my bookshelves, one of them with an introductory essay which I read (only the essay) last year. Did you read the novel in German?

Buddenbrookhaus seems to be a great museum. Very nice website. I think I'll visit the site and its different links later and study them more carefully then. Interesting.

16kjellika
Abr 26, 2009, 3:39 am

I've just finished In Chancery and am going to read the interlude (Awakening) today.
I guess I'll finish the rest of this read (i.e. To Let in less than a month.

And ohh, What a part of 'TFS' In Chancery is!! I loved reading about all the interesting characters and the plot is very exciting. Soames is NOT my favorite character, but I'm still hoping he will grow wiser and become more "human" as he has got a daughter now. He really wanted a son, though, and so did his father James. Soames lied to James saying that Anette had given birth to a boy. Was that the right thing to tell the dying old man? Maybe it was.
I'm really looking forward to read (much) more about this exciting family.
What will happen to Jolyan, Irene and their son? And Holly and Val?
Soames and Anette? Their daughter Fleur? I remember she was one of the main characters in the ~40 years old tv series.

17hemlokgang
Abr 26, 2009, 3:47 pm

Just checking in as I am about to begin reading.

18englishrose60
Abr 28, 2009, 7:54 am

I have just finished reading In Chancery. Galsworthy has fleshed out the characters we met in The Man of Property which I also enjoyed very much. I love the way Galsworthy gives us bits of information we did not already know, rather like being at Timothy's hearing bits of gossip but not knowing the whole of it. Wonderful. Do not care much for Soame's attitude!

I have also read the interlude 'Awakening'.

Looking forward to starting To Let tonight.

19hemlokgang
Maio 10, 2009, 9:21 pm

I am midway through "In Chancery" and thoroughly enjoying the book. The whole issue of "Forsyte" standing for an entire class of people is wonderful. The character development is tremendous. Galsworthy uses a nice touch of foreshadowing every so often, which is well done. When Old Jolyon died I felt quite sad and yet satisfied that he was so very content at the end. I hope to hear more of Holly and Jolly.

20rebeccareid
Jun 11, 2009, 8:09 am

I finished In Chancery the other day and now I'm in the middle of To Let. I lost all my sympathy for Soames during the In Chancery section. I understand the whole play on "chancery" being "an awkward situation" but I had a hard time feeling sorry for anyone: just stop thinking about your self and reputation and do what's right!

While the characters may be more "fleshed out" now that we know them and see them more, I don't think I like them any more.

I felt really disappointed about midway through this section: after Soames got the evidence against Jolyon and Irene, we stop hearing about their story. I really liked them best, so the fade out while they went off and had their affair felt like something was missing. Overall, I felt that the end of In Chancery was rushed and not as well developed.

I loved the queen's funeral: that was a great look at the changing of the age. It helped me see how clueless Soames was. He just gets worse! I thought he was awful to lie to his father about his child. I thought he was awful to not care about anyone (not even his wife). I just hate him.

In the end, I didn't like this section nearly as much as the first. A stereotypical sequel: not as powerful throughout as the original.