Fellowship of the Ring discussion, chapters 4-6

This week's chapters are

4. A Shortcut to Mushrooms
5. A Conspiracy Unmasked
6. The Old Forest

Chapter 4 notes:

1) I love the chapter title. It's my favorite in this book.

2) I'm with Pippin; no thinking at breakfast (Mrs. Espy says "Amen to that!").

3)As I read chapter 3, I couldn't see why Tolkien included the elves, but in this chapter it's clear that the encounter with the elves does contribute to Sam's character development.

4) This part of the book reminds me of Prince Caspian, where Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy and Trumpkin spend so much time lost in the woods.

5) Farmer Maggott is this chapter's King of Exposition.

1. "Good heavens, at breakfast?" - Pippen cracks me up. And he wasn't even kidding - he was truly appalled. Love it.

2. "Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones" - One of the smartest things Frodo's said thus far... But I'm afraid watching the films again has rather poisoned me against him. Let's see if the books change my mind.

3. "Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go" - quite a catchy little tune :)

4. Bath songs - It truly does sound like Hobbit life is a grand one. I'm reminded of the Hundred Acre Wood and Pooh's silly songs.

5. "Frodo opened his mouth and shut it again. His look of surprise was so comical that they laughed." - good for them, telling Frodo how clever he isn't! How funny. And Sam right in the thick of it all; no surprise there. I much prefer this to the accidental growth of the party in the movie; it makes Pippen's future blunders a bit easier to handle.

6. Anyone else here read Speaker for the Dead, or Xenocide? Old Man Willow reminds me of the fathertrees that perform Quim's trial by fire, as it were.

Ch 4

1. I also love this chapter title and the way they fit it into the movie.

2. I like the line that Sam says about the elves being above his like or dislike. It doesn't matter what he thinks of them, they are anyway. I just really like elves.

3. "Short cuts make long delays..." is so great! It can be so applicable for any road trip!

4. Do you think hobbit dogs are smaller to be hobbit-sized? A Great Dane would stand taller than some hobbits.

5. I really like Farmer Maggot.

2.4 Foggi, Actually, many parts of "The Old Forest" reminded me of Prince Caspian: missing or moved paths, trees almost awake, unexpected rivers and gorges.

3.2 Aglia, Frodo was my least favorite of the four main hobbits in the movie, too. I am trying not to mix him up with the book Frodo, but it is hard. I guess I liked Elijah Wood's portrail, it is just that Pippen and Merry were so fun and Sam so endearing.

4.4 Lefty, Anyone else notice one of Farmer Maggot's dogs was named Fang? :)

Bath songs - I love all the (few) hobbit songs we get.

Mushrooms! They're mine. Hand's off.

the 'Sniffing' is never clearly explained? anyone any ideas.

Old forests can be really creepy at times - when they haven't been managed.

Compski, my main issue with Frodo has yet to be resolved in the books, and I'm probably going to hold it against book-Frodo unless and until he does something to throw it off. He would do anything to be out from under the burden of the ring, even after being told by good and powerful people that it would be terrible in even their own hands. And the other Hobbits were absolutely more enjoyable in all their own ways!

I thought Gandalf's line at the beginning of the book about the qualities Frodo was obviously NOT chosen for was rather demeaning and poorly timed when I first read it, but now I feel that it was a warning of sorts, and not a simple, flippant comment.

Another thing on this topic (and I'm sorry in advance, because when I begin to dislike a character it really shows, so any big Frodo fans, please forgive me) - I think that the films attempted to forge a rapport between the viewer and Frodo when I'm not entirely sure that's what Tolkein expected, or wanted, from his readers. Frodo was perhaps the main vehicle for the story, but this is not "Frodo Baggins and the Fellowship of the Ring." I don't think we need to like him - there are plenty of nobler and more honorable characters surrounding him throughout.

I have to disagree strongly that Tolkien didn't mean for Frodo to be the center of the books. The main theme of the LoTR is that the smallest and least likely person could be a hero and it is Frodo's sacrifice to carry the Ring that saves the day. The book makes it much more clear than the movie how difficult it was for Frodo and Sam to walk through Mordor and carry the Ring to the volcano, even if he did falter at the end. I'm not sure what you mean about him doing anything to be out from under the burden of the Ring since that's the opposite of what really happens.

jj, please bear in mind that this is my first time reading these books; as you have Tolkien listed as a favorite author, I'm presuming that you've read them all before and that you are coming from a different place in regards to knowledge of the story as a whole. As a first time reader who, for better or for worse, has seen the films, I'm probably coming at this from an angle you never did, and I'd guess that it's difficult to imagine how I perceive things at this very early point in the novel. I certainly wouldn't presume to state anything more than an opinion based on what I've read so far. I hope it's clear that everything I put forth is, unless a direct quote, simply my own opinion.

That being said, I'm certain that much will become clearer to me as the complexities of the story are revealed in the books. I don't believe that anything short of a play that precisely follows a script can be put into a movie and create the same picture for the watcher of the film as it does for the reader of the book/script, and even then, it's down to actors' interpretations, directors' visions, etc.

I also believe that that's one of the beauties of reading something as a group - I may come to the end of the stories and feel that your summation of,

The main theme of the LoTR is that the smallest and least likely person could be a hero and it is Frodo's sacrifice to carry the Ring that saves the day.

is entirely accurate. Or I may feel that the main theme is something vastly different. Short of asking Mr. Tolkien, I've no way to know the "truth" - and even if I knew his intended meaning, I feel that each person's perception is his or her own truth; I don't believe that the main theme of any piece of literature must be hard and fast.

Quick comments on chapters 4-6 (more when i have time)
1) Maggott. What an unfortunate name.
2) They are my shrooms! my preciousssss
3) Fool of a took!
4) Why has tolkien got it in for old forests?
5) Stupid hobbitses. The trees are tricking you. The hardest path is the only worthwhile path.

>#3: It's been a while since i read the Ender series, but Old Man Willow seems quite a bit darker than the father trees. I like the parrallel though, i'll have to check out that part.

>#6: They talk about the sniffing and whether the Riders can actually see later in the book.

MrA: I think the Willow is certainly more sinister, partly because it's such a foreign concept. With the father trees, they could communicate with words, and the Lusitanians knew that they were sentient before the incident with Quim, which takes some of the fright factor out. On the other hand, since the father trees communicate, we get to hear their jeering and nastiness.

#9 -- Laia, it will be interesting to see if you like Frodo better after reading the series! I like movie-Frodo . . . but then, I liked book-Frodo first.

I'll have to read Ender's Game (been wanting to for a while now, and I can poach Espy's library copy if I move fast!) but I've been thinking about all of the portrayals of forests and trees in fantasy. There's something just magical about trees. I love all of Tolkein's forests (even creepy Mirkwood in the Hobbit), though I love Lorien best, and want to live there.

I'm also sure I've read at least a couple of other books where trees eat people -- one I'm just assuming picked the idea up from FotR, as it was written later by a less accomplished author (The Tower of Geburah, if anybody's wondering) but I'm sure I've read the whole trees-eating-people scenario at least one other place. Oh, well, it will come to me.

I have only two notes on chapter 5, so here they are:

1) Kicking someone is not the best way to make sure they're asleep.

2) This Chapter's King of Exposition™: Meriadoc Brandybuck!

I'll post my comments later when I have access to them (all three of them...) but I wanted to respond to something hat you said, Aglaia.

He would do anything to be out from under the burden of the ring, even after being told by good and powerful people that it would be terrible in even their own hands.

I find this to be a portion of the character that I can relate to. Frodo doesn't want fame and glory. He doesn't want to have songs and books written about him. He wants to live a comfortable life where he can enjoy the company of his friends, something he would have done had not Bilbo found the ring. I don't think he would exactly do anything. If he really wanted to be rid of the ring easily he could have walked up to a Ringwraith and said, "Here, take this to Sauron with my complements."

He doesn't want to have to take the burden of the problem if there are others willing to take it for him. He still believes at this point that if he can find someone else who wants to destroy the ring that they will be able to do it. He both understands and doesn't understand the problem of the ring at this point in the story, and I hope that he is redeemed in your eyes by the end of the books. Frodo is not my favorite hobbit; I don't think I really have one. However, I do like the character.

But if you don't like Frodo in the end I won't hold it against you. The world is full of people that we don't like who are important for some reason or another and do their best to change the world for the better. I hope you enjoy your first read-through of the series!

"The world is full of people that we don't like who are important for some reason or another and do their best to change the world for the better."

*mutters something about Snape*

Sorry, pet obsession. Ahem, back to The Lord of the Rings!

I like Gollum.

Notes on Chapter 6:

1) Getting up at half-past four in the morning?!? *shudder*

2) Frodo says, "If there are no worse things ahead than the old forest I shall be lucky." Frodo is not going to be lucky.

3) Merry mentions twice that they don't want to go to the Barrow Downs, which should be a clue for perspicacious readers that they will end up there sooner or later.

4) There are an awful lot of songs in this book. I didn't realize it until I had to come of with tunes for all of them on the fly.

5) Tom Bombadil: even when he's not singing, he's singing. He even talks in rhythm. I think this is an example of really good writing on Tolkein's part, the way he's just nailed this character's voice.

Espy, you make a good point. I didn't think of it as him actively wanting his simple life - more as him actively not wanting the responsibility that has been laid at his feet. Thanks for a new perspective :)

And yes, "anything" was rather a stronger sentiment than I should have used; I think that he doesn't think through the potential harm that giving the ring to Gandalf, or then Galadriel, could bring on all of Middle-earth. That was the part that galled me the most (in the movies) - that he would offer the ring to her even knowing her power and being able to presume that the ring would be every bit as dangerous in her hands as in Gandalf's, if not more so.

Interesting thoughts on Frodo!

May I just say, laia, I'm glad you're reading with us. :)

16.1 And they seem to think getting up at 4:30 AM a perfectly capital idea!

Ch 5
1. "He would jump down a dragon's throat to save you, if he did not trip over his own feet." And that is why Sam is so wonderful.

2. Ahh, trust again. I like this perspective on trust. Merry makes a good point that being able to trust is all about what you want.

Ch 6
3. The way the willow slows everyone down until they fall asleep makes me think of the Doldrums in The Phantom Tollbooth.

4. Sam must have good teeth to be threatening to gnaw open the tree.

5. Tom Bombadil is such a sunny character in a dark place. And foggi's right -- even when he's talking, he's still singing.

Aww, thanks, lefty! Me too :) It's a change, taking books in small bites and really paying attention to them, piece by piece. And I'm glad to be doing it with a crew so knowledgeable!

I think that you're giving Frodo credit for too much knowledge. He doesn't realize until sometime after Galadriel what power the Ring has over people.

12: Foggi, Darn, you put a trademark on King of Exposition! There go all my marketing plans :) *cancels t-shirt order*

16.1 Foggi, 4:30 am after a dinner, a bath, another dinner and a long talk. They must have slept 3 hours!

18.16.1 Lefty, Maybe they like to get up that early to fit in breakfast, second breakfast and elevenses.

18.3 The way everyone fell asleep kind of reminded me of the poppies in Wizard of Oz.

Ch 4: I like that Frodo used to get into trouble with the Maggott for stealing mushrooms. It lets me relate to him more. Oh, for childhood and schemes and adventures.

Ch 5:This is the where I first fell in love with Merry. He is kind of the unofficial leader of the group and smarter than he seems to be. Even Frodo can't deny him.

Ch 6: I was noticing the connection between the dreams they were having and their fears. And Sam just slept on.

tiegster, I like that bit, too - the easy forgiveness and comfort that came between Frodo and Farmer Maggott was heartwarming, and Frodo's youthful naughtiness makes him more realistic, gives him a history.

There's a lot of hate for Tom - he gets cut from the movie and the BBC dramatisations - and a lot of casual nonLOTRfans don't liek him. But he's a key character. As will be explained in Rivendell. Symbolic of many other powers and creatures historically present in MiddleEarth (rather than invaders like the elves). the Ring (being forged by Sauron also an invader) has no power over him - or any other native of middleearth, but equally is not safe with him either. This is the first (or second) clear indicator to Frodo that the burden is and will always be his.

How could you not like Tom? Must be the singing. Often, it seems casual fans quickly tire of the rhymes.

#21 Compski, I hadn't thought of that! They would have been lucky to get 3 hours of sleep! And good point: to fit in 6-8 meals a day, you'd have to be awake a long time (although, hunger seems the lesser point of food for hobbits).

22.6 Tieg, and how perfectly fitting for Sam just to sleep on!

I can understand why someone might not like Tom, if they particularly prefer the "serious" side of LotR and get a little annoyed with aspects that could be considered "twee" or childlike. That said, i really like Tom. He's a merry fellow. Bright blue his jacket is, and his pants are yellow. Or something.

>#22: The dreams were interesting, weren't they? I was wondering if they were meant to be typical expressions of the subconscious, or if there was intended to be a bit of foretelling or forewarning there. Later in the book there are descriptions of dreams that are clear expressions of the gods providing direction or warnings.

#26 there are no gods in MiddleEarth. The valar aren't gods as as such and don't interfer with MiddleEarth directly. To me the dreams are at worst fears of the OldForest.

Plus Tom leads to the Barrows and the Barrow Wight which leads to them acquiring some weapons which become important later. Eliminating Tom leads to the elimination of a lot of the richness of the later story, IMO.

I wasn't going to mention that until we actually got there! But yes the barrows are vital to plot continuity.

Yes, they are! More about that when we get to that chapter!

#3 and others... when I learned later about Huorns, I wondered if Old Man Willow might have been one.

I liked Frodo a good deal when I first read the books. I was 13 or so and he was even older than my father! Of course the ring kept him from showing it. I believe JRRT identified pretty strongly with Frodo and all the hobbits.

I noticed old Tom speaking in blank verse even when I was a teenager, and thought it was pretty cool. Now, though, I sometimes can't help hearing the verses from Bored of the Rings...

#20 I think Frodo begins to understand the ring's power when Bilbo asks to see it in Rivendell. I think he has to offer it to other characters for their development, so that they can reject it. This is especially important in the case of Galadriel.

#22 I agree, Frodo's backstory with Maggot is humanizing (hobbitizing?) for both of them. It gives us an initial picture of Maggot and we can see how the real Maggot differs from it.

#24 rf, interesting theory. Do you think Tom is not a child of Eru? Is anyone else immune to the power/lure of the ring?

#31. Tom is the Eldest, before even Elrond (or any Elf?) walked the Earth. I think Treebeard and maybe all Ents may be more or less immune, Shelob too, the dragons?. Nothing explicitly stated either way. But there are many old powers that roam the earth and most of these I suspect would be free. But in the end, like Tom, overwhelemed by conventional might, orcs and swords.

Good point about huorns, that has crossed my mind, many of the Old Forest trees seem able to move.

#32 -- I think the dragons desired the rings in the same way they desired all treasure. Certainly it was mentioned that some of the Seven had gone to dragon-hoards and/or been destroyed by dragon-fire. But I agree, the dragons didn't feel the pull of the Ring in the same way that the elves, men, hobbits, etc. did.

I just have to say that I've been so brain-fogged of late that I saw the "Fellowship discussion, chapters 7-9" and had to come looking for the one for chapters 4-6 to make sure I'd read them. *shaking head*

I'll join you all on 7-9 in a day or two...